Rank System

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    Kill the Rank System!

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    mk1rceme
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    Rank System

    Post by mk1rceme on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:04 pm

    What are your feelings about scrapping or keeping the current rank system? It has come to my attention that some members feel it may be intimidating to newer collectors who join the forum. Honestly, I can totally agree with this concern. There are some forums I have joined where I feel I'm completely out of my league for somewhat similar reasons. I want everyone to feel welcome so I just need some opinions on this and anything else you think needs attention. I have a few rare days off so I want to do some maintenance.


    Last edited by mk1rceme on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Bill
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Bill on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:01 am

    I am in favour of scraping it. It really doesn't mean much. The number of posts is not reflective of the quality or content of said posts.
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    pylon1357
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by pylon1357 on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:30 am

    I am of the same mind set. I am not certain what the ranking system is designed to do. Some forums I have been a member of the rank system was skewed by one line posts like "cool" "Nest" "interesting" things like that.

    As for being intimidated by it, not really, although on two forums, I am a little intimidated by the sheer knowledge of the people. LMAO

    Now if I may be excused, I have to get off the internet, and get my butt in gear and get ready for the Remembrance Ceremony.


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    Cliff

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    mk1rceme
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by mk1rceme on Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:58 am

    your lucky you get to go the ceremonies...I'm just heading out to work again. Days off don't start until tomorrow for me.


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    Re: Rank System

    Post by pylon1357 on Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:45 pm

    Just returned a little while ago from the National Cenotaph here in Ottawa. Again I had the honour of laying the Wreath on behalf of the Irish Regiment of Canada Veterans Association. Unfortunately, I was alone this year representing the Association. My long term veteran friend from the Regiment was under the weather.

    BUT this is the first year I was in possession of the Memorial Cross named to my uncle. I was wearing it, however, hidden under my Regimental Association dress.


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    Wouter
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Wouter on Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:22 pm

    I too have voted in favour of abandoning it. It just makes people go out and post nonsense things such as 'cool' or 'nice', just to get to a higher rank. Secondly, as has been said before, someone's rank is not an indication of his expertise at all.
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    Rob
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Rob on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:17 pm

    I was the one who put a vote in the "What's a rank" category. Not because i don't know, just because I don't really care either way. I never really took any notice of them, until this topic came up.

    They are somewhat meaningless, though.

    Rob


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    Bill
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Bill on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:38 pm

    Hi Cliff, As a surviving relative of your uncle, you have the right to wear the Memorial Cross. Eg openly.
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    mk1rceme
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by mk1rceme on Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:54 pm

    Got home early tonight so I fiddled around a bit. Got rid of the ranks and images of such. Set a "new member" to 25 posts before becoming a "member". Makes things much simpler.

    What do you think?


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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Wouter on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:03 am

    That's a good change. Makes sense.
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    Darrell
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Darrell on Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:15 am

    Hi Dale

    Works for me.....but then again I was only a Corporal!! The best rank!!!!:lol:

    Bill

    Careful what you say to Cliff. Let's be clear here. The Mem Cross is in the National Honours System. If he was issued it as a survivor then fine, he can wear it but if it was not issued to him specifically, he is in breach of Article 419 of the criminal code.

    ...WEARING

    Any legal recipient may wear the Memorial Cross at any time they deem appropriate. It is worn on the left breast, pinned above any medals the recipient may have been awarded. It should be noted that as medals may only be worn by their original recipient, the medals of a deceased person shall, under no circumstances, be worn by a next of kin or any other person.

    A member of the Canadian Forces who is the legal recipient of the Memorial Cross may wear the Cross on the service dress jacket with Nos. 1, 1A and 3 orders of dress. The Cross is worn 2 cm above the left breast pocket or 2 cm above any ribbons, medals or specialist badge the person may be entitled to wear. The Cross may have to be offset in order not to be obscured by the lapel of the jacket....
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    Would anyone hassle him over it? I doubt it. I would if he wore it whilst in his Military uniform but unlikely anyone would say anything if he were in civilian attire or his Assoc rig.

    Cliff

    Well done representing your Regt in Ottawa. I've only ever managed to go there once (during a crse in St Jean)as all other Nov 11 parades during my career have been...........directed locations. :yessir:

    As a side note, My bosses wife was 2Bn Irish.

    regards
    Darrell
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    Bill
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Bill on Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:20 am

    Hi Darrel, I am not sure where you are quoting the provisions from? Is that from CF regulations?
    Here is the current Section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada:
    Unlawful use of military uniforms or certificates
    419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,
    (a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,
    (b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,
    (c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or
    (d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,
    is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
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    Darrell
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Darrell on Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:24 am

    Hi Bill

    Sorry I wasn't more clear but the quote I gave above is in the description of the Memorial Cross online with the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (I gave the intra-net link instead of the internet one!Oopps)

    Try here:

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    Your posting of the relevant CCof C article is spot on. Note that sub para c) says "...or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services,..."

    That's a Memorial Cross as it is in our Honours System.

    Dress Regs for the CF would not have anything except the correct wearing. I will have a look through regs when I get a chance but I think between the "status" of the Mem Cross and the CC of C article; one could not legally wear a relatives Mem Cross if it was not specifically awarded to that person. Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't give anyone grief over doing so (unless they were one of my soldiers) and believe personally that the Criminal Code article should not exist but just because you don't like a Law doesn't give you the go-ahead to ignore it.

    Hope that made sense.

    rergards
    Darrell


    *Edit

    I had a look online at A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instruction and Chapt 4 Para 5 says:

    Although honour insignia may be
    bequeathed or given to a relative or friend (for
    Canadian orders, with the concurrence of the
    Order), only honours actually awarded to the
    individual concerned may be worn, regardless of
    the occasion.

    Pretty clear that if Cliff is still serving the CF in any uniformed capacity then he is subject to this Instr.
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    Bill
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Bill on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:23 pm

    Hello Darrell, I am still a little puzzled. The CF regulations do not apply to civilians. I can see it applied to someone in uniform, but I am at a loss to see how the jurisdiction of the CF can be extended to a civilian.
    The Memorial Cross is under the Directorate of Honours and Recognition or the Veterans Affairs, depending on time of death. Equally, I am not sure how the CC of C is applicable. The Cross is not "awarded" but is "granted" as a "memento". In most cases those the Cross is granted to are civilians. Reference to S419,(c). If a relative other than those named in the granting, or for that matter, if I was to take a Mem Cross from my collection and wear it to honour the memory of a fallen service man or woman, there are some serious implications and unintended consequences. I am going to do some further research on this question.
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    Darrell
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Darrell on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:49 pm

    Hi Bill

    Obviously CF regs don't apply to a civilian. I'm pretty sure that is not the case with Cliff. And point taken about the Mem Cross being a momento.

    However I just spoke with DH&R (1-877-741-8332)and VAC Honours and Awards Section (1-877-995-5003) and they both state that no matter what the Memorial Cross is called (Memento, decoration, medal or whatever), the fact that it falls under the Canadian Honours System, makes it so that the CC of C applies to civilians (and both CC of C and Regulations for serving members)in that it cannot be worn by any other than the recipient. They did acknowledge that the likelyhood of legal action taken against anyone who does wear an honour they themselves have not earned is small. Both also encouraged displaying it otherwise than wearing it (carried in a frame etc).

    Pretty clear and from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

    regards
    Darrell
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    Bill
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Bill on Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:18 pm

    Interesting. My requests to VAC have not been answered.
    Clarification. The CC of C always applies to all Canadians and foreigners in Canada, civilian or military and it takes precedence over the CF regs. I was not suggesting the CC of did not apply to civilians. But, CF Regs can not be applied to civilians in this situation. The opinion of the VAC and DH&R may be that the Memorial Cross is under the honours system but I am not sure a court would agree, if it were to proceed that far. The key is the wording of the CC of C and the wording for the award of the Memorial Cross. A "mememto" is not by definition an "award". I will post when the reply from VAC arrives.
    Here is a big question. How would an enforcement official know if the person is the recipient?
    How would this apply retroactively? The Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not allow laws to be applied retroactively. So a Cross awarded to a wife or mother during the Second World War and then passed on to a child or relative, not entitled would be charged?
    Certainly an inconsistency, and I don't think, an intended application of the law.
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    pylon1357
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by pylon1357 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 pm

    WOW little slow to reply here, sorry for the confusion. I am civilian therefore the CF regulations for serving members do not apply to me. I am currently deployed in KAF as a civilian vehicle technician in Special Projects.

    I chose to wear the memorial cross out of respect to the memory of my uncle, and my grandmother who obviously wore it in bygone years. The reason I wore it under my association dress was simply because I was terrified to lose it. That and the fact it looked odd around my neck in front of my Regimental tie. If the ribbon were to break while worn inside my shirt, no harm no foul, I would not have lost it. Had I wore it out and the ribbon broke, it would certainly be lost.



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    qsamike
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by qsamike on Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:59 pm

    Darrell wrote:Hi Dale

    Works for me.....but then again I was only a Corporal!! The best rank!!!!:lol:

    regards
    Darrell

    Don't forget that Hitler and Helier were both Corporals.......

    Mike
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    Darrell
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Darrell on Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:53 pm

    Hi Mike

    No, I hadn't. Wink

    Hi Cliff

    Sorry, I seemed to have it in my head you were a Reservist on deployed call out. Not that it was clear in the first. I hear you about losing it. The suspender bar is the way to go.

    Hi Bill

    ...My requests to VAC have not been answered...
    Called the number; spoke to Alice. :|

    ...CF Regs can not be applied to civilians in this situation...
    I never once said they did. Thats something you brought up. The references I made to CF regs were exactly that. Regs for service members. Again not clear to me at the time if Cliff was a Civ or a soldier. :yessir:

    ...The opinion of the VAC and DH&R may be that the Memorial Cross is under the honours system...

    I believe it is not a matter of opinion of these Federal offices but rather that since the Honours System is a Sovereign Federal institution that Federal Law (IE The CC of C)would be respected and be relavant to each other. I'm not a Lawyer and wouldn't pay a cent to have it determined. :lol:

    ...Here is a big question. How would an enforcement official know if the person is the recipient?...

    Don't know and don't care. I don't train Cops. I know I wouldn't grab the arm of some dude who has a screwed up chest of medals and crosses and drag him to the nearest Mountie for immediate arrest. I doubt, and I mean really doubt, that anyone wearing anything short of the "Pissin' on the War Memorial" Anniversary Medallion would be arrested on Remembrance Day for breaking the law. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    ...So a Cross awarded to a wife or mother during the Second World War and then passed on to a child or relative, not entitled would be charged?...

    Change "would" to "could" and yes they could be............if they wore it. That's my thinkin' anyway. I'm just a poor soldier who knows what applies to soldiers. To me the CC of C Article applies too..... to civvies. Merely what I think. I don't like it and wouldn't enforce it myself but I don't have to either. Just the soldiers. Wink

    I'm done with this. Let me know how you make out with VAC, Bill. :)

    kind regards
    Darrell

    *edited for clarity


    Last edited by Darrell on Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Darrell
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Darrell on Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:03 pm

    Hi CLiff

    Will you get (or possibly already have) a GSM or OSM? hmmm

    regards
    Darrell
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    pylon1357
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by pylon1357 on Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:24 am

    Darrell wrote:Hi CLiff

    Will you get (or possibly already have) a GSM or OSM? hmmm

    regards
    Darrell

    Hello Darrell, I received my GSM in a medals parade in KAF in June 2009. Mine has the ISAF Bar on it, which I understand I am supposed to remove and send in to DH&R.

    I missed my original parade in April as I was HLTA. My first tour was 8 months, total or 242 days. Since then I have completed another 6 month tour plus almost 4 months into my third.

    Not certain if I will stick around to do a 4th or not.


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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Darrell on Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:24 pm

    Hi Cliff

    It is my understanding that if you have a GCS/GSM with the ISAF bar and less than 210 days) and what is now the SWA ribbon, then you just remove the bar. If you had earlier qualified for say the "Allied Force" GCS/GSM then you'd send that bar in for a length of AF Ribbon. Anyway, we're still wearing the bar as the actual Dress Instr to remove them isn't out to us yet. :lol:

    Not sure about turning in an ISAF bar for additional tour bars. The troops have them but haven't asked anyone about getting them. n/a for me. You're looking at about 3 bars now, I should think. :idea:

    Nor am I sure about you moving over to say an OSM-SWA when you begin to count time there again. Hmmm, could be another gong in it for you. hmmm

    regards
    Darrell
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by pylon1357 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:38 am

    Hey Darrell, I will have to see what the regulations finally say. There was some poor wording and flip-floping going on when I last looked into it.

    I have the GSM with SWA ribbon and ISAF-FIAS bar. I qualified for my fist bar on my first tour. I was 242 days in KAF. Since that time I have qualified for my second tour bar, and as of this date, 28 days short of my third tour bar.

    It seems to me Units are responsible to collect ALLIED FORCE and ISAF bars and return them to DH&R which holds stock of the new ribbons and tour bars. Of course as usual, I am likely confusing the issue.

    At this point in time, my company has said they will only apply for the tour bars on our behalf once. In other words, when leave the company's employ they will look into it. I contacted DH&R and asked about appligng,for the bars, I was informed I had to follow my chain of command. In other words, back to my current employer.


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    Haplo
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    Re: Rank System

    Post by Haplo on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:06 pm

    mk1rceme wrote:What are your feelings about scrapping or keeping the current rank system? It has come to my attention that some members feel it may be intimidating to newer collectors who join the forum. Honestly, I can totally agree with this concern. There are some forums I have joined where I feel I'm completely out of my league for somewhat similar reasons. I want everyone to feel welcome so I just need some opinions on this and anything else you think needs attention. I have a few rare days off so I want to do some maintenance.

    This is the same reason we killed it also at Tommy-talk.com.
    We also saw a lot of people who had the idea that the rankings had a great influence.
    That was really not the case just as it was here.
    But still it gave a lot of discomfort to some new members.

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