Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

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    48th
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by 48th on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:00 am


    Thanks for posting the pictures for me Wgrenadier, my guess on the 4 digit numbers are either production run/batch numbers or inspectors numbers.


    48th
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by 48th on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:05 am

    In regards to the pictures that Infanteer posted for me I have a few questions for fellow collectors:

    1) Does any one have any information on what the unknown Strap (MS&U 1944) is used for? It is about 4' long.

    2) Does any one have in there collection or any information on the strance Z.L.&T. 1944 braces varation? I have been unable to find any more of the braces and I have not seen any information about them in the books I have.

    Perth-Regiment(M.G.)
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Perth-Regiment(M.G.) on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 am

    Dose anyone know where I can buy a Wire Cutter Frog for my wire cutters and ww2 Pliers for my Pliers Frog?

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

    Thanks 48th! I hadn't thought of production run/batch numbers before, but it makes sense!

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:43 pm

    Karkee Web writer, Rog Dennis, gave the following answer when asked how the early war binocular carriers were attached to web equipment sets...  

    "The strap & buckle arrangement could allow for buckling to dees of W.E., I.O. Strap, back adjustment and to the dees on the Attachments, brace, which officers might still have had from prewar private purchases. This pattern had integrated bino / compass and holster / ammo assemblies. For expediency, these were sometimes separated, fitted with “C” hooks, so that a replica of the new Patt. ’37 standard was effected. Why waste what you’ve spent good money buying?! However, why have the Case flapping around, when it has “C” hooks to attach to the belt?

    More plausibly, it could also attach, with the strap & buckle, to the Sling with dees, for officer's Haversacks & Water Bottles that were add-on items associated with Sam Browne Equipment. Once again, officers may well have purchased these and a sling, so why waste it?! It's just a convenient way of carrying just the binos - nothing else, say whilst observing manoeuvres, etc.€

    http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/officers/w_e_o/1919/components/belts/html/belt_out.html
    http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/officers/w_e_o/1919/components/belts/html/ba_2_in.html

    OR (just using buckles) to a Patt. '37 W.E. Brace. It was NOT part of Patt. '37 W.E., so should've read Carrier, for Case, binocular, W.E. Patt. ’37"

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:39 pm

    Just came across the following L-straps from an eBay seller in Australia.

    They look very similar in construction to the 2nd pattern braces made by ZL&T LTD, so I wonder if they are some intermediate form from 1943 that preceded the type with no reduction?


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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:08 am

    This early war set of Canadian-made Pattern 1937 officer's webbing was listed on eBay a while back, and included a 1939 dated (maker's mark listed as unreadable) .38 holster. This particular holster is very interesting because it has been user modified to accommodate a larger-frame revolver with the addition of a closure strap extension.

    I believe this modification foreshadows Canada's official introduction of the large-frame holster in 1942.


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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:41 am

    Some pictures of an early war set of Canadian manufactured Pattern 1937 Webbing.

    Complete set in Field Service Marching Order


    Interior view


    Basic pouches marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942" - Note the ballistite loops


    Right side - Note the 1-inch wide basic pouch closure strap and front closure water bottle carrier


    Water bottle carrier marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942"


    Haversack marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942"


    Canadian mess tin cover in typical greenish shade of Canadian khaki drill


    Canadian government ownership mark on mess tin cover


    Mess tin cover made by TAPATCO and marked "THE AMERICAN PAD & TEXTILE CO. - CHATHAM - ONT. 1942"


    Haversack interior showing dividers for mess tin/water bottle as well as the inspection/production number


    Large pack marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942"


    Support straps marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1943"


    Back of basic pouch showing "SMALL" marking


    Belt Marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - L - 56" - Note that large sized belts could accommodate sizes up to 56-inches


    Bayonet frog made by Granby Elastic Webbing and marked "GEW 1942"


    Left brace marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - L"


    Right brace marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - R"


    Left L-strap marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - L"


    Right L-strap marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - R"


    British & Canadian Emergency S.A.A. Bandoliers


    Close-up of S.A.A. Bandoliers


    Last edited by Wgrenadier on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:17 am

    Some pictures of an early war set of Canadian manufactured Officer's Pattern 1937 Webbing.

    Exterior of set


    Interior of set


    Belt marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1941 - L"


    Water bottle Carrier marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1940" or "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1941" - Note the Canadian sold-out-of-service mark


    Brace attachment marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1943" - Note the later style 'solid bar' belt fitting


    Right brace marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - R"


    Left brace marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942 - L"


    Right side of webbing showing the binocular case and compass pocket - Note the lack of buckles on the 1st pattern binocular case and the early top closure on the water bottle carrier


    Binocular case marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1940"


    Bausch & Lomb 6x30 binoculars with Canadian government ownership mark


    Compass pocket marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1940"


    Left side of webbing showing the pistol case and pistol ammunition pouch - Note the box shape of the ammunition pouch (due to a lack of Canadian looms capable of integral weaving) as well as the 1st pattern Canadian holster


    Pistol case marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1941"


    Pistol ammunition pouch marked "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1942"


    Officer's valise - Note that the closure strap is shorter than the British pattern


    Officer's valise "Z.L.&T.LTD. 1941"


    Interior snaps of officer's valise marked "UNITED - CARR"


    Interior of Canadian snaps marked "UNITED CARR - CANADA" - Note that all snaps on this set are pebble grained

    48th
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by 48th on Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:49 am

    Great examples there Wgrenadier. You have a very nice collection.

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:32 pm

    Thanks 48th!

    I know you have a lot of early production webbing as well…have you ever noticed that examples made in 1940 are darker khaki (closer to the British shade of khaki) than the normal golden shade of later Canadian webbing?

    I also have an unissued ZL&T Canadian pistol case dated 1940 in a bizarre greenish-gold shade that doesn’t match anything, so perhaps Canadian manufacturers were experimenting with the dying process in that year…

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by zekehp on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:01 pm

    Everything is in excellent condition. I'm jealous.

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:00 pm

    zekehp wrote:Everything is in excellent condition. I'm jealous.
    Thanks for the nice words! You know that I owe my early basic pouches, frog, support straps, etc to you though! These pictures are a bit old and don’t reflect the new additions.

    I really appreciate your help with my collecting! Very Happy

    48th
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by 48th on Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:40 am


    Hi Wgrenadier,

    As you know I have an almost complete set of Z.L.& T. 1940 P37 webbing and yes I have defiantly noticed a considerable difference in the color of some of the 1940 dated Canadian webbing. I would consider Canadian made P37 WWII dated webbing to have an orange hue to it.
    I have a large pack that if you did not see the maker marks you would think that it was British made, it is considerably more beige in color with a courser weave to it.
    I also have seen mint unissued 1940 dated webbing with the greenish tint that you mentioned as well. It seems the makers marks and date stamps are inconsistent as well ranging from small to large font stampings and extremely dark to faint.
    1940 was the first year that P37 webbing was manufactured in Canada and it stands to reason that there would be some growing pains with material suppliers and the manufacturing process in the factory resulting in some inconsistencies. It is my feeling that all the inconsistency we see with 1940 dated webbing took place early in the production year and were corrected later in the year. Another good example of this is the 1940 dated binocular case having no buckles on some 1940 dated cases and some do.

    As always Wgrenadier you have contributed great information to this site and I am sure it has helped a lot of collectors learn some thing including my self, keep up the good work.

    Judging from the Canadian produced webbing I have seen the inconsistency issues were fixed by 1941.








    Wgrenadier wrote:Thanks 48th!

    I know you have a lot of early production webbing as well…have you ever noticed that examples made in 1940 are darker khaki (closer to the British shade of khaki) than the normal golden shade of later Canadian webbing?

    I also have an unissued ZL&T Canadian pistol case dated 1940 in a bizarre greenish-gold shade that doesn’t match anything, so perhaps Canadian manufacturers were experimenting with the dying process in that year…

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:58 am

    Hi 48th,

    I'm glad someone else has noticed the variation in color of early Canadian webbing and it's not just my imagination! I wonder if the greenish webbing was designed to match the greenish Canadian khaki drill?

    Regardless of color variation in the first production year, Canada's overnight webbing industry was incredible! I believe Canadian webbing easily matches/exceeds British webbing for quality and uniformity...then again, Canada's webbing manufacturers didn't have to worry about nightly air raids!



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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:06 pm

    I just noticed that the thigh strap on later production RAC holsters switched to a multi-piece construction similar to auxiliary yoke in 1943.


    lorne19
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by lorne19 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:22 pm

    Wow Wgrenadier, amazing collection. I'm really jealous of your Canadian officer valise. I've yet to find an unissued example for my collection. Keep up the great work!

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:43 pm

    Hey Lorne,

    Thanks for the compliment! The RAC holster is actually from collector's guild though (I just borrowed the picture).

    I actually spotted the Canadian valise on a militaria site based in Germany of all places. It wasn't listed as Canadian, which is probably the reason it was still available.

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:49 pm

    Just came across the following picture which shows the celebration of the 100,000th Inglis Bren gun in 1943. If you look at the bandsmen, you'll notice the webbing music cases or 'cases, card'...


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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by lorne19 on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:07 pm

    Very interesting pic and a very rare piece of webbing.

    edstorey
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    Musician's Pouch

    Post by edstorey on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:48 pm

    The Inglis photograph is a nice one.

    I didn't realise that these web Musician's Pouches were that rare.




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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:54 pm

    Hey Ed,

    Thanks for the additional photos!

    '48th' (who provided the picture for the earlier posted music pouch example) said that he has never seen an example dated after 1940. Have you seen any dated later than 1940? Is the first music pouch that you shared dated 1943 (it's hard to tell from the photo)?

    edstorey
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    Musician's Pouch

    Post by edstorey on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:46 pm

    The example in the top photograph is MS&U 1943.

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:59 pm

    Thanks again Ed!

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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:43 pm

    So I found another picture of those possible Canadian-made L straps stamped with what appears to be "M.S.&U.Ltd 1943" and a Canadian acceptance mark...It's very faint though.


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