Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

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    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:13 pm

    Apparently Zephyr Loom & Textile tried their hand at making US webbing in 1942 (possibly for the Kiska Campaign?)...

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/usgi-z-l-t-ltd-canvas-bar-ammo-belt-361039/












    edstorey
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    ZL&T Manufactured US Style Web

    Post by edstorey on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:27 am

    Doubtful it was made for Kiska as the Canadians were supplied with US manufactured uniforms and equipment to augment their Canadian items. Interesting piece none-the-less.

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:45 am

    A Canadian-made waterbottle carrier with steel fittings


    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:23 pm

    Thanks to 2ndAIF we finally have some photographic proof that Montreal Suspender & Umbrella Manufacturing Company, Limited made one last style of L-straps in 1943! How odd that this firm never seemed to produce multi-piece construction braces, yet employed this type of construction on L-straps (rather than the adopting the style with no reduction in width).

    It appears they just wanted to be different than Ontario-based Zephyr Looms & Textiles, Limited...they were French after all.  Very Happy 


    mk1rceme
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by mk1rceme on Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:02 am

    Awesome job of getting all this web documented!


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    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:56 pm

    Here are some great shots of a modified first pattern Canadian holster. The listing that these pictures came from states that both snaps are marked "UNITED CARR ~ CANADA". Given that the added snap is of a pebble grain pattern, it is likely that this modification was carried out in Canada sometime between 1940 and 1942.

    I have seen a number of these early production Canadian holsters modified to accommodate the larger frame .455 revolver which was still widely carried in the Canadian Army during the Second World War. They were probably used as a stopgap until the introduction of the larger, second pattern Canadian holster with the round flap.





    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:57 pm

    mk1rceme wrote:Awesome job of getting all this web documented!

    Thanks Dale! I thought it would be great to get it all in one place!

    edstorey
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    Modified 1937 Pattern Web

    Post by edstorey on Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:50 am

    Be mindful of assuming that modifications to 1937 Pattern were made during WWII. 1937 Pattern Web was employed by many nations well into the 1990s and modifications were made to suit the user country's requirements using component parts from other webbing items.

    The modified holster you are documenting could well have been altered by the Netherlands or Denmark.

    48th
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by 48th on Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:30 am

    Good point Ed,
    It would be interesting to see type of modification being carried in a WWII period picture to confirm this.

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:22 pm

    Hi Ed,

    That is a good point Ed! I haven’t seen any official documentation or period photos to support my hypothesis. However, the evidence does point an early Canadian modification, rather than a postwar European modification. The evidence I am going off of is listed below (strongest to weakest).

    1) Both snaps are of early war style Canadian manufacture, which were not in use after 1942. Even South Africa stopped receiving pebble grained Canadian snaps during the war for their webbing, so I think it is unlikely that postwar European countries would have access to them.

    2) There was a need for larger holsters in Canada from 1940-1942 to accommodate the .455 revolver, a fact supported by the introduction of larger frame holsters in 1942.

    3) One of the converted holsters appeared on a matching set of 1939-1940 dated Canadian officers webbing. (see earlier post for pictures)

    4) All three examples I have seen have been on the US/Canadian market, with none seen in overseas listings.

    Of course I have no actual proof unless I come across photographic evidence, so the search continues!  Very Happy 

    -Mike

    edstorey
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    Your Evidence

    Post by edstorey on Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:19 pm

    Mike:

    Interesting evidence, but I have to ask; how do you know the snaps were not in use after 1942? Even if 1942 is the supposed cut-off date, how many snaps were made prior to 1942? With the tons of web that was available for the post-WWII military market, how much of it was manufactured prior to 1942?

    How do you know the large frame holsters were introduced in 1942?

    The matching set of Officer web, what is the provenance?

    Just because these holsters have apparently not been seen on the international surplus market, does that really make them Canadian WWII?

    By all means continue your quest to find the answers, but I think that right now you are holding a NATO rework.

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:43 pm

    Ed, your critical thinking skills are bar none and you’ve certainly posed many legitimate questions (that I wish I had answers for)!

    You’ll definitely be the first person I contact if I come across any new evidence supporting either a Canadian wartime or a NATO postwar origin.  2 thumbs up 

    -Mike

    Haplo
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Haplo on Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:56 am

    The Canadian Stengun sling.
    Looking at his British counterpart this is really simple made.
    Just a strap with some rivets.
    This one is made by ZL&T.Ltd in 1942



    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:04 pm

    Thanks for posting Sipke! That sling is of a very simple construction!

    It seems like the Canadian webbing industry beat the British in manufacturing pieces pieces for use with the STEN (i.e. spike bayonet frog and sling)


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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:31 pm

    Just came across this 1943 cartridge carrier with a brace attachment that is constructed from two pieces of webbing (similar to the 2nd pattern brace) instead of one reduction-woven piece (note also the use of 'battle brass')...


    Here is an example of the earlier style on a 1940 dated carrier...


    Here is a pair of RCAF carriers that show both styles (the left carrier also appears to use 'battle brass' fittings)...


    It is likely this modification appeared sometime in 1942 or 1943 around the same time Zephyr Loom & Textiles started producing the 2nd pattern braces...


    Last edited by Wgrenadier on Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

    MRDK1
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by MRDK1 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:57 am

    Hi,

    I seems that M.S.U.used black rivets on the water bottler carriers and support straps. In regard to the webbing pistol holster being modified by Denmark. The Danish modifications look completely different. I was in the Danish army for 15 years and never saw a Canadian made holster. Plenty of British war time ones. I have only seen one Canadian made small pack in Danish ex army stock and one Canadian made brace. The rest were British made or of post war Danish manufacture.

    MRDK1

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:26 pm

    Thank you for your insight into Danish webbing!

    As for the intermittent use of black rivets on MS&U webbing, it is interesting to note that this appears to be an Australian phenomenon. Perhaps those rivets were just used on one of MS&U's wartime shipments bound for Australia, because they don't really seem to be around in the US or Canada (unless they were recently brought back on the collector's market). I could totally be wrong though...

    MRDK1
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by MRDK1 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:00 am

    It is possible that M.S.U. used the black rivers for an Australian order. Australia appears to have relied on Canadian made webbing until own production took off around 1943. I have quite a few crates that were packed around 1949-1950. These crates clearly contains surplus W.W.2. webbing that quite often is in mint condition. I have found the M.S.U. produced water bottle carriers and support straps with the black rivets in these crates. But also used early type of brace attachments made by Z.L.T. Quite a few of the water bottle carriers made by M.S.U. were converted to jungle standard by fitting 2 c hooks. Great fun to open a crate. Always hoping to find something. But so far the stock numbers are correct so no nice presents Crying or Very sad .  

    MRDK1

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:37 am

    That sounds like fun! Too bad you don't have a crate of unissued Canadian belts, you could have retired! Lol


    Last edited by Wgrenadier on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

    MRDK1
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by MRDK1 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:29 pm

    Yes!

    The Australian army managed to wreck all of the wartime belts by using them for parades.

    Painted black with the rear buckles cut off.

    Depressing!



    Michael

    edstorey
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    1937 Pattern Waistbelts

    Post by edstorey on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:52 pm

    The Canadian Army did the same thing with their stocks.

    LSR
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by LSR on Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:44 pm



    How about this belt?
    Is it a standard handout, or specially for motorcyclists or something like that?
    Is it ww2 because I couldn't find a date only a C broad arrow.

    ypres
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by ypres on Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:32 pm

    I'm not 100% sure, but I think this belt is a barracks belt ? Worn in shirtsleeve order from May to October.

    Ypres


    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Field Guide to Canadian P37 Webbing Modifications (with pictures)

    Post by Wgrenadier on Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:29 pm

    Very cool belt! I agree with Ypres that it looks like a stable belt or something. Also, I did not know that Montreal Suspender & Umbrella worked in leather as well!

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