1943 Canadian battle jerkin

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    smle1940
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    1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by smle1940 on Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:09 pm

    Here's my latest winning of the collection, let's say this is my Holy grail! I've been looking for a used example and not a mint one like u see in musea.
    This example has been found near Utrecht (Holland). It has had a field modification. the wood and string 'closing system' has been replaced by Canadian anklet straps!! So originally it is an English made Battle jerkin but me and other collectors believe it has been used by a Canadian soldier. due to the fieldmodification. I hope u'll like it!

    Best regards Glenn






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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by mk1rceme on Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:19 pm

    Very nice! Field mods always make an item more interesting.


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    edstorey
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    1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:54 pm

    It is actually a British 1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin. It is indeed an interesting find, especially with the modifications. What leads you to believe it has Canadian provenance other than the web modifications? Do you know when and where Canada used these Battle Jerkins?

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by smle1940 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:56 am

    edstorey wrote:It is actually a British 1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin.   It is indeed an interesting find, especially with the modifications.   What leads you to believe it has Canadian provenance other than the web modifications?   Do you know when and where Canada used these Battle Jerkins?
    Like I've said, it is indeed a british pattern, but with the modifications we believe it has been in Canadian use...
    The Canadians used them all around, here are some examples from the regina rifles, Canadian Scottish, etc...





    smle1940
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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by smle1940 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:57 am




    edstorey
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    1941 Pattern Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:30 am

    Who is 'we'?

    The photographs that you have attached are all well known Library and Archives of Canada images which date from May-June 1944, the period that this garment was in use by the Canadian Army. There is also one image of RCN Beach Commandos taken in Normandy in July at the time when that unit took control of part of the JUNO Beach sector. Four of the images are of the tan Training version of the Battle Jerkin, these date from May 1944. Two are of Padre Seaborne, Canadian Scottish Regiment on 6 June during Op NEPTUNE.

    In a nutshell, the 1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin was only used for a very short time period, with the tan Training version being employed during pre-Invasion exercises in May saving the brown version for the actual assault. Battle Jerkin's were not issued to all of 3rd Canadian Infantry Division for NEPTUNE but to selected assault units and it was only used for a couple of days after the invasion when they were replaced by 1937 Pattern Web.

    RCN Beach Commando 'W' was issued their Jerkins from British stores and that unit only used this vest during July 1944.

    I don't think that a two-month use by this garment constitutes a statement that it was 'used all around'.

    As for modifications. Even though the modifications to your Jerkin are interesting, I doubt very much that they are military and most likely were made by post-WWII by whomever owned the vest. If you have a good look at the RCN Beach Commando image that you provided, there is one member who has removed the front pouches and has stitched 1919 Pattern Web Lanchester Pouches on instead. This was a common modification by some members of RCN Beach Commando W who were issued the Lanchester as the 50 round magazines did not fit or stay secured well in the front pouches of the Battle Jerkin.

    Archival documents on this Vest discuss the problem with the loop and toggles and the Canadians in their version of this Jerkin used 'Lift-the-Dot' fasteners, which did help but did not totally solve the problem. Looking at the modifications made to your Vest, the web straps used on the rear pack seem very practical, but the use of the small web straps from Anklets would be very difficult to undue in order to retrieve anything in the pouches. You also have to remember that the anklets web straps were made small because they were not designed to be opened and closed very often like the Haversack and Large Pack which use correspondingly larger web components.

    Don't get me wrong, you have a nice vest albeit with post-WWII modifications and not something that the 'we' have lead you to believe was used by Canadians solely based on the type of webbing which was stitched to the garment.

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by smle1940 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:56 am

    edstorey wrote:Who is 'we'?

    The photographs that you have attached are all well known Library and Archives of Canada images which date from May-June 1944, the period that this garment was in use by the Canadian Army.   There is also one image of RCN Beach Commandos taken in Normandy in July at the time when that unit took control of part of the JUNO Beach sector.   Four of the images are of the tan Training version of the Battle Jerkin, these date from May 1944.   Two are of Padre Seaborne, Canadian Scottish Regiment on 6 June during Op NEPTUNE.

    In a nutshell, the 1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin was only used for a very short time period, with the tan Training version being employed during pre-Invasion exercises in May saving the brown version for the actual assault.   Battle Jerkin's were not issued to all of 3rd Canadian Infantry Division for NEPTUNE but to selected assault units and it was only used for a couple of days after the invasion when they were replaced by 1937 Pattern Web.

    RCN Beach Commando 'W' was issued their Jerkins from British stores and that unit only used this vest during July 1944.

    I don't think that a two-month use by this garment constitutes a statement that it was 'used all around'.

    As for modifications.   Even though the modifications to your Jerkin are interesting, I doubt very much that they are military and most likely were made by post-WWII by whomever owned the vest.   If you have a good look at the RCN Beach Commando image that you provided, there is one member who has removed the front pouches and has stitched 1919 Pattern Web Lanchester Pouches on instead.   This was a common modification by some members of RCN Beach Commando W who were issued the Lanchester as the 50 round magazines did not fit or stay secured well in the front pouches of the Battle Jerkin.

    Archival documents on this Vest discuss the problem with the loop and toggles and the Canadians in their version of this Jerkin used 'Lift-the-Dot' fasteners, which did help but did not totally solve the problem.   Looking at the modifications made to your Vest, the web straps used on the rear pack seem very practical, but the use of the small web straps from Anklets would be very difficult to undue in order to retrieve anything in the pouches.   You also have to remember that the anklets web straps were made small because they were not designed to be opened and closed very often like the Haversack and Large Pack which use correspondingly larger web components.

    Don't get me wrong, you have a nice vest albeit with post-WWII modifications and not something that the 'we' have lead you to believe was used by Canadians solely based on the type of webbing which was stitched to the garment.
    I do get you wrong, how can you say for 100% sure that the modifications are post war ?! The same thing I can't say it is period done... But then is the question why would someone change it after the war... and during offcourse. But that's always the question with modificated items.
    the vest has been left behind in Holland, by the Canadian troops! and there are pictures with Canadians wearing a battle jerkin in Holland, so they did not all changed them for p37 webbing. Even better I saw one picture of it in a book, just have to find out wich one it was.
    Conclusion; I do not agree with your statement.

    Don't get me wrong....

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by LSR on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:26 pm

    Nice vest Glenn, I never thought  that J would sell it, or did you make him an offer he couldn't refuse  Wink  .

    I can confirm Glens' story, but 100% confirmation on the modifications we will never get.

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    1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:45 pm

    If there are photographs of Canadians wearing the Battle Jerkin in Holland, then please provide one. If indeed there is such a photograph, then why would you not have posted it earlier?

    To date, there is no proof, photographic or documentary, supporting that these Jerkins were used by the Canadian Army after early June 1944.

    You ask why would someone change it after the war, these vests were popular with the outdoor community, hunting and fishing; the changes were mostly likely made during the 70 odd years from WWII until you bought it.

    I challenge you to prove that there are photographs of these Jerkins in use by Canadians in Holland.

    Right now I am guessing you paid a lot of money for a Jerkin that was modified after WWII and that you desperately want to believe that these modifications give it some Canadian provenance. Prove me wrong.

    smle1940
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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by smle1940 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:18 pm

    edstorey wrote:  Prove me wrong.
    I WILL !!!

    edstorey
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    1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:49 am

    I eagerly await any additional information that you can provide.

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by jm on Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:27 pm

    This Battle Jerkin was for 100% sure left in the Netherlands, I know the story. The Jerkin was find by Dennis, he was buying some Canadian soldier title and he asked the seller (older man who get the titles from the Canadian liberators), do you have more ww2 related items and he came with the battlejerkin. THIS IS NO "WALT DISNEY" STORY BUT THE REAL STORY!

    Don't think you know everything about the Battle Jerkin, you are wrong! Do not judge to quickly.



    Do you have a Battle Jerkin in your own collection? Not a used one I think.

    edstorey
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    1942 Pattern Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:51 pm

    I certainly agree with you as I do not know everything about the Battle Jerkin so I await any additional information that can be provided.

    Unfortunately all that has been offered to date from both of you ('jm' and 'smle1940') have been some rehashed LAC images and a second-hand story about a Jerkin found in the Netherlands.   To be quite frank, if I had a Euro for every story I have heard about rare and exciting WWII 'Canadian used' item found turning up in an old barn in Normandy or the Netherlands, I would be as rich as Walt Disney.

    As for your question about owning a Battle Jerkin, hmmmm let me see....




    pylon1357
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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by pylon1357 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:49 am

    I am so proud of a certain someone for remaining very calm.

    Oh and by the way... great Jerkins guys. Something my collection is lacking.


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    Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:32 am

    Cliff, you are an inspiration to us all.

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by servicepub on Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:46 pm

    Best lesson I ever got when I started collecting was "buy the object, not the story". Let's admit that it is a very nice jerkin, with an interesting modification. No one can prove its provenance or track the history of the changes to it so be staisfied with what you have - a very nice jerkin.

    When arguing with Ed (and that is a sport all of it's own) keep in mind that he has read and analysed all of the existing Canadian documents on this item. I know because I passed them on him. What Ed is trying to do throughout the collecting community is to raise the level of knowledge. He and Bill Alexander are both rare individuals in that they have used their personal resources (money and time) to research the source documents. This is far more valuable to collectors than the old story of "my father's uncle's second cousin once heard from the neighbours postman that...." which is so prevalent amongst collectors.

    Clive
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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by Infanteer on Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:39 pm

    Well said Clive. It can be difficult to convince someone to consider only the real evidence when they really want to believe in the story...

    edstorey
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    Battle Jerkin

    Post by edstorey on Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:45 pm

    I still have my fingers crossed that some new original images will show up.

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by kozowy1967 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:20 am

    edstorey wrote:I certainly agree with you as I do not know everything about the Battle Jerkin so I await any additional information that can be provided.

    Unfortunately all that has been offered to date from both of you ('jm' and 'smle1940') have been some rehashed LAC images and a second-hand story about a Jerkin found in the Netherlands.   To be quite frank, if I had a Euro for every story I have heard about rare and exciting WWII 'Canadian used' item found turning up in an old barn in Normandy or the Netherlands, I would be as rich as Walt Disney.

    As for your question about owning a Battle Jerkin, hmmmm let me see....




    Bloody nice examples Ed and I as well learned along time ago unless an item has rock solid providence you must accept it for what it truly is anything else is muddying the waters .
    IMO the burden of proof on an item weather it is providence and or the physical characteristics of the item such as in this case modifications must be the responsibility of the owner or original poster to prove to the fellows around him.
    LOL I take it discussion can get a little heated around here at times which has become apparent from reading this thread .

    Regards Mark

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by pylon1357 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:53 am

    kozowy1967 wrote:
    edstorey wrote:I certainly agree with you as I do not know everything about the Battle Jerkin so I await any additional information that can be provided.

    Unfortunately all that has been offered to date from both of you ('jm' and 'smle1940') have been some rehashed LAC images and a second-hand story about a Jerkin found in the Netherlands.   To be quite frank, if I had a Euro for every story I have heard about rare and exciting WWII 'Canadian used' item found turning up in an old barn in Normandy or the Netherlands, I would be as rich as Walt Disney.

    As for your question about owning a Battle Jerkin, hmmmm let me see....




    Bloody nice examples Ed and I as well learned along time ago unless an item has rock solid providence you must accept it for what it truly is anything else is muddying the waters .
    IMO the burden of proof on an item weather it is providence and or the physical characteristics of the item such as in this case modifications must be the responsibility of the owner or original poster to prove to the fellows around him.
    LOL I take it discussion can get a little heated around here at times which has become apparent from reading this thread .

    Regards Mark  

    Mark, this discussion has been very interesting. I know I have learned more than thing or two. As for heated.... well I have not had to step into my moderator pants, so it's all good. LMAO

    These jerkins have always been a mystery to me. I know I will never own one but I can drool from afar.


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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by kozowy1967 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:22 pm

    Please don't get me wrong Cliff there is nothing I like better than a spirited discussion about collecting no disrespect meant to ED what so ever.As to the jerkins I could not agree with you more the odds of finding one are quite slim but I wont say never as stranger things have happened and one never knows what is lurking in the shadows of dingy dim basements,attics, and those out of the way little stores I like to frequent so often.
    IMO the original poster of the thread should not have taken it so to heart and if he had proof of his claim that these were indeed worn in Holland he should present it for all to see I know I would just to prove my point.

    Regards Mark

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by smle1940 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:54 am

    Hello to you all, I was for a long time away for my work so I did not had the chance to write an answer here. I'll start from the beginning. ED, I respect your efforts towards rechearching and your own knowledge about Canadian military items, but it is not when you say some thing that they al always right, You can also make mistakes, just like everyone else. Just form your replies otherwise. they coming over very aggressive to me (IMO). Just give us to chance to prove thing or let 'mysteries' open... But don't decide something IS true or NOT, just by your meaning. But besides that, I repsect your knowledge. As my '2ndhand story', I had contact with the original owner of the jerkin. His father lived on a farm in Holland near Utrecht in the war-time period. he was only 14years old when they where liberated. after the war in 1945 there where a lot of troops staying in Holland. The little kid started to collect some small military items (badges, titles and some equipment). As the troops came by he exchanged some dutch pre-war items for Canadian ones. as so he got the jerkin. as many years gone by the box with all the items remains and his son did not look at it. 12years ago, a collector friend of me saw some titles for sale on the internet. He contacted the man and agreed for a certain price. when he bought it he asked the man if he had some other stuff still remaining. The man brought up that box with some equipment etc... and also the jerkin in it. U can think this is a 2ndhand story, but this is what it is. nothing more like that. and here in Belgium and Holland there are still a lot of thing in sheds, attics, basements etc... somethimes it is to crazy for words!

    The modification; why would someone use this jerkin for Hunting in the 70's? I think there where a lot of other equip-vest or other 'bandoliers' for hunters in that time. why use a vest that is 30years old? If that is the thruth how did the man came to 8 anklet straps and 2 small pack straps?? Was every villager owning a bunch of Canadian equipment in that time? Unless he was a collector, but why would a collector change those items to a jerkin that is already a special items. IMO this was done war-time. there where a lot of things modificated, and not always they had a positive effect. But still I do not believe this was done post-war. and once again, everyone has his own meaning about those things. I really like my example, because it shows wear and it's one of a kind. Sometimes you have to look outside of the book. I'll try to do my best and look up for that picture. Give me some time :-)

    Best regards
    Glenn

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    Battle Jerkin Discussion

    Post by edstorey on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:45 am

    Glenn:

    You can have as much time as you like to prove your point. What you have to understand is that a story from a vendor or a series of collector friends does not constitute as proof. The story can form a good lead towards finding proof, but a story in itself requires some hard evidence in order to support it. To date the story of Canadian use by the Battle (Assault) Jerkin is documented, that is with archival paperwork and period imagery, showing that it was used by a very short period by the Canadian military to early June in Normandy by the Army, and early July in Normandy by the RCN. Primary source, documentary evidence shows that after that period, the Battle Jerkin was no longer used by the Canadian military. This vest did see additional use late into 1944 by the British, notably with the Commandos.

    I would be very interested if you can turn up an original image or primary source documents that can help expand the story.

    You ask about someone using this vest for hunting. Again what you have to realize is that following the end of WWII, tons of surplus military equipment was available on the surplus market for cheap, very reasonable prices. Unlike today's society where everyone wants and can generally afford new items, from 1945 up until the 1970s it was not uncommon for someone to purchase surplus material for work and sporting wear. This surplus material was not considered collectable and no-one thought twice about modifying it, at times with other surplus material such as webbing, to suit their particular needs or to repair damage.

    As other people have posted, a good practice to follow is 'buy the piece not the story'.

    You have an interesting item, but what you have is a Battle Jerkin that at some time in its life was modified with various webbing straps. Unfortunately the modification and the accompanying story do not constitute as proof of this item's use by the Canadian Army in the Netherlands. The challenge for you is to now find the proof.

    ED

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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by pylon1357 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:23 am

    Glen, please do not take anything Ed says to heart. He is a very knowledgeable collector, one I have learned much from. He can come off as a little brash or abrasive, but that is just his way. He is, in my opinion, a very passionate collector when it comes to Canadian militaria and such may come across as heavy handed.

    I wish I could contribute something to this discussion, but these Jerkins are way outside anything I know about.


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    Re: 1943 Canadian battle jerkin

    Post by Infanteer on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:18 am

    Actually, I think Glenn should take what Ed says to heart. There is a lot of wisdom in what he (and others) is saying. It's clear that Glenn is passionate about the story behind his jerkin which is great. It's great to see someone being passionate about this hobby. However, for the rest of us the story is just that... an unsubstantiated story. I'm very happy that Glenn is sharing his great piece with us but I too am looking forward to some period photos or some other proof that the jerkin was both used and modified by a Canadian soldier during the war. I'm not convinced. Over the years we have all seen people trying to justify their pieces and normally the only people they are convincing is themselves.

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