M1 carbine

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    LSR
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    M1 carbine

    Post by LSR on Sun May 11, 2014 12:47 pm


    What do you guys know about the use of the M1 carbine in the Canadian army during WW2 especially in spring 1945 in Holland.
    Several years ago I found (with metal detector) around the village where I live, (among other Commonwealth stuff and ammo) ,cartridges for this weapon on more than one location.
    And I know of 3 other people who also found them, all on different locations in the eastern part of Holland.
    Since there were n't any Americans here during the liberation,only Canadians and Brits for as for as I know of.
    I've seen a lot of pics from our liberators (local archives) but I never did see a Canadian soldier armed with a M1.
    So I'm curious where the ammunition did came from or why they brought it along.

    pylon1357
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    Re: M1 carbine

    Post by pylon1357 on Thu May 15, 2014 8:38 am

    As far as I know, and I stand to be corrected, the Canadians didn't use the M1 Carbine. As you know the M1 has a rather distinct round.

    What is the area the rounds were found? Possible resistance fighters??


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    CampX
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    Re: M1 carbine

    Post by CampX on Thu May 15, 2014 10:19 am

    I have heard of some Officers "Trading" C C for them, but all unofficial

    Dean

    Ian B
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    M-1 Carbine

    Post by Ian B on Thu May 15, 2014 10:38 am

    Good day Dean,

        I will echo Cliff's post.  I don't think the Canadians "officially" used any American weapons (with the exception of those in the First Special Service Force, the "Devil's Brigade").  Any Canadian who had an American weapon probably scrounged it and the ammo, giving some Yank sometihing desirable for it.  There are Canadian Army pictures showing some members of 1 Can Para using US weaponry.  In Ken Joyce's book, "Into the Maelstrom", there is a picture of a CQMS having a meal in Northern Germany in early '45 with a paratrooper's folding stock version of the M-1 Carbine around his neck.

        Just a question, though.  Are you sure the gear you found wasn't left by the Americans?  Don't know where your village is located, but the Americans, in the form of the two Airborne Divisions, were in Holland at one point, fall of '44.  Might this not be the leavings of their occupation of the area?  Just a thought.

        Cheers,

        Ian B

    LSR
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    Re: M1 carbine

    Post by LSR on Thu May 15, 2014 3:36 pm

    I live in the eastern part (Twente that is a part of the provence Overijssel)  of the Netherlands,so there were no Yanks here.
    I found the ammo on two different location BOTH were Canadian camps littered with 303 and 9mm, ammo ,beer bottles, ration tins and all sorts off other crap, fireplaces with burnt web gear only the brass remaining.
    One of the campsites was a transfere camp for the RCA. Your fellow countryman stayed here till summer 1945.
    I don't think resistance fighters left their ammo there.
    So the mystery stays unsolved Rolling Eyes

    snafu
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    Re: M1 carbine

    Post by snafu on Sun May 18, 2014 3:36 am

    Ian B wrote:Good day Dean,

        I will echo Cliff's post.  I don't think the Canadians "officially" used any American weapons (with the exception of those in the First Special Service Force, the "Devil's Brigade").  Any Canadian who had an American weapon probably scrounged it and the ammo, giving some Yank sometihing desirable for it.  There are Canadian Army pictures showing some members of 1 Can Para using US weaponry.  In Ken Joyce's book, "Into the Maelstrom", there is a picture of a CQMS having a meal in Northern Germany in early '45 with a paratrooper's folding stock version of the M-1 Carbine around his neck.

        Just a question, though.  Are you sure the gear you found wasn't left by the Americans?  Don't know where your village is located, but the Americans, in the form of the two Airborne Divisions, were in Holland at one point, fall of '44.  Might this not be the leavings of their occupation of the area?  Just a thought.

        Cheers,

        Ian B
    Another exceptionl is the use of there .30 andere .50 on there shermans. Found these rounds also on the Leopold Canal site where no Yank had ever been. Maby the m1 carbine was in use with tankcrew?

    LSR
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    Re: M1 carbine

    Post by LSR on Sun May 18, 2014 8:26 am

    snafu wrote:
    Ian B wrote:Good day Dean,

        I will echo Cliff's post.  I don't think the Canadians "officially" used any American weapons (with the exception of those in the First Special Service Force, the "Devil's Brigade").  Any Canadian who had an American weapon probably scrounged it and the ammo, giving some Yank sometihing desirable for it.  There are Canadian Army pictures showing some members of 1 Can Para using US weaponry.  In Ken Joyce's book, "Into the Maelstrom", there is a picture of a CQMS having a meal in Northern Germany in early '45 with a paratrooper's folding stock version of the M-1 Carbine around his neck.

        Just a question, though.  Are you sure the gear you found wasn't left by the Americans?  Don't know where your village is located, but the Americans, in the form of the two Airborne Divisions, were in Holland at one point, fall of '44.  Might this not be the leavings of their occupation of the area?  Just a thought.

        Cheers,

        Ian B
    Another exceptionl is the use of there .30 andere .50 on there shermans. Found these rounds also on the Leopold Canal site where no Yank had ever been. Maby the m1 carbine was in use with tankcrew?

    Do you mean carbine ammo or rifle ammo?

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    Re: M1 carbine

    Post by Ian B on Mon May 19, 2014 4:37 pm

    Any thing is possible, Dean.  We'll probably never get a 100% answer, however, I think we have an 80% answer.  Photographic evidence shows Canadians in Canadian units using American weapons.  In your part of the world, it could have been anybody, tankers, arty guys, Service Corps types.  The M-1 Carbine was designed to replace the pistol as protection for certain trades.  It had the reach of a rifle without the length and weight, and was lighter and shorter, so it was handy for weapons crews and soldiers who spent a lot of time in a vehicle cab or compartment.  Plus, it was semi-automatic with a twenty round magazine.  Troops probably though it was more reliable than the Sten.  At the end of the war, I'm sure nobody wanted the trouble of accounting for ammo and non-regulation weapons, so soldiers were probably told "...I dont' care what you do with it, just get rid of it!!"  I know I've run into that sentiment before.

         So, there is my opinion, for what it's worth.  All I can say is that soldiers will be soldiers and go for the "high speed" kit if they think they can get away with it.

         Cheers,

         Ian

    edstorey
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    Non-Regulation Weapons in Canadian Hands.

    Post by edstorey on Mon May 19, 2014 6:28 pm

    I tend to disagree with Ian's statements on the employment of US weapons in Canadian use and feel that all they do is substantiate the perceived myth that soldiers could and would use any weapon on-hand regardless if it was standard issue or not.

    The Canadian Army did employ large numbers of US manufactured weapons, but the M1 Carbine was not one of them. There are a few exceptions were the M1 Carbine was issued to Canadians, notably those assigned to the Kiska landings in 1943 and the First Special Service Force. If the war with Japan had continued in late 1945, the 6th Canadian Division would have used US small arms for their assault on the Japanese mainland. Following the Second World War, M1 Carbines were employed by the Canadian brigade in Korea.

    The unauthorized use of non-standard weapons besides being against regulations also poses several problems. Enemy weapons have distinct signatures that can cause confusion amongst friendly forces with potentially deadly results. Non-standard weapons also effect the firepower within the unit employing them and there is also the resultant supply problem associated with sustaining non-standard weaponry.

    There are plenty of images showing Canadians sporting captured enemy side arms, but these were more for show then actual use; the few images of 1 Can Para personnel with M1 Garand Rifles or M1 Carbines should not be the grounds for a blanket statement or hypothesis that Canadians in the Army used whatever weapon they wanted at any time.

    LSR's question about finding spent M1 Carbine cartridges in Canadian held WWII areas of the Netherlands is interesting and deserves more scholarly research into the question rather then speculation drawn from a couple of isolated WWII images.

    Tankermike
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    M1 Carbine

    Post by Tankermike on Tue May 20, 2014 3:52 pm

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    M1 carbine in use by 1 CAN PARA CQMS H. Smith, Germany 1945. Canadian Arty NCO with Luger and US Belt and holster, both pictures from "Tip of the Spear" by Horn and Wyczynski.

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