Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

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    Wgrenadier
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    Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:47 pm

    Hey Guys!

    I've always wanted to buy a set of Canadian-made WWII mess tins, but I've never seen a dated pair. The ones that seem to pop up are aluminum and made by "DURO" and "CCB," but I'm not sure if these were made during WWII (early or late) or postwar for the Pattern 51 set. The broad arrow in the C make me think that they were made earlier...

    Also, what does CCB stand for? I have seen it stamped in mess tins and button sticks and was wondering if it could be "Canadian Copper & Brass"

    Thanks for your help!








    Infanteer
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Infanteer on Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:54 pm

    I have a Canadian mess tin in my collection made by G.A. L'HOIR, LEVIS, Q. that is also stamped with a C broad arrow and no date. I like to think it's SWW vintage but have no evidence to back this up.

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:01 pm

    Cool, thanks Infanteer! So I guess that's a third Canadian mess tin maker...

    But why did all they all refuse to date their tins?


    48th
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by 48th on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:16 pm

    I have a set of unissued Canadian made "W.D.S&Co DURO aluminum" mess tins, C broad arrow that I am fairly certain are WW2 vintage.

    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:11 am

    That's in keeping with the rest of your phenomenal collection 48th! Do you think these aluminum Canadian-made tins were used early in the war? If not, what did Canadians use while at home in Canada? They probably would have had British-made ones once they went overseas.

    48th
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by 48th on Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:30 am

    Hi Wgrenadier,

    I have also yet to see a WWII DATED set of Canadian made mess tins. Lots of British dated ones but never a Canadian set. The makers mark on mine is similar to the Duro marked example pictured in your original post second from the bottom. I will email you a picture of the markings on my tins Monday.

    In response to your question I am not really sure when the Canadian made mess tins would have seen use exactly. As we all know Canadian soldiers leaving for war in 1939-40 were issued P08 webbing and at some point were issued British made P37 webbing and equipment after arriving. I would suspect that later in the war Canadian soldiers arriving to Europe from Canada would have had Canadian made webbing and equipment as industry ramped up.
    Most of my WWII interest and research focuses on the Italian campaign, having talked to many vets on the subject of equipment and rations I have been told that while the Canadians were under the British 8th Army the were issued almost exclusively British rations and equipment "and the worst of it" as some veterans have said. Even rations dating from the First World War. When the 5th Canadian Armoured Div arrived the food and equipment got better.

    As for Canadian soldiers on the home front as it relates to mess tins, in my opinion and from what I have seen in pictures they were using great war or interwar made items and as time went on, new webbing was produced and distributed so were the new mess tins.

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by pylon1357 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:37 am

    This discussion an a very basic item, the mess tin, has really got me thinking. I have a mess tin that came direct from an RCEME veteran, along with his complete Battle Dress, Beret, Gaiters, Blackened Web Belt, medals and a bunch of other items, including his utensils.

    The grouping is being stored at my fathers place. I will really have to look at his mess tin to see what markings are on it. I will be visiting him on the 15th September.


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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by 48th on Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:12 pm

    Hi Cliff,

      I look forward to hearing what you find on your mess tuns.

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Bill on Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:36 pm

    Mess tins were personal kit. Soldiers proceeding overseas would take their personal equipment, as they would be required at various points in transit. Certain kit was to be maintained from Canadian stores and I think the mess tins fall in that category. Overseas, they may have drawn upon British tins if there was a shortage or if they were in the Brit supply system. (As the Canadians in Italy were.)

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:52 pm

    Thank you guys for all of your insight and comments! It's great to hear the combined experiences of such knowledgeable collectors!

    I posed the question originally because I was curious about what mess tins were used by the Canadians that went to Hong Kong with their newly issued Canadian-made webbing. I have seen Canadian-made mess tins covers with 1940 and 1942 dates, so I thought it made sense that they would have had Canadian-made tins as well...

    I recently stumbled on the following site that discusses an engraved mess tin used by Canadian that was captured in Hong Kong during his POW years. The mess tin is of the early aluminum type an the article states that "the side with the handle attached has the name of a company located in Birmingham stamped on it with the date, 1939." It also claims that the mess tin must have originally belonged to a British soldier stationed in Hong Kong because of its origin.

    http://beyondthecall-hongkong.blogspot.com/2011/08/ted-kurluks-engraved-mess-tin.html

    What do you guys think? Do you think Canada imported British mess tins in the early war years and issued them to C Force or is this an item picked up while serving in the colony?


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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:00 pm

    Here are photos of the Canadian mess tin covers that I mentioned...




    Infanteer
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Infanteer on Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:22 pm

    Does anyone know the official nomenclature for these bags? I don't seem to be able to find reference to them in my 1945 copy of the Priced Scales of Issue.

    edstorey
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    Ration Bag

    Post by edstorey on Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:38 pm

    Check under Ration Bag.

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Infanteer on Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:28 pm

    That's what I was looking to confirm. It has always been my understanding that these bags were intended to carry rations and while they fit the mess tins that was not the original purpose.

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:40 pm

    Hmmm...I always thought that these Canadian bags were far more similar to the British "cover, mess tin" (made obsolete by the British c1941 for economy reasons) than the far more basic "bag, ration, Mk.IV"

    http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_associated_equipment_other.html

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Infanteer on Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:52 am

    So they may have started as mess tin covers but were re-purposed as ration bags. That would make both nomenclatures correct depending on the time period you associate them with.

    edstorey
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    Ration Bags

    Post by edstorey on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:20 am

    Is there a catalogue listing of Messtin cover for these Messtins - I have never seen one. It is just a coincidence that the Messtins fit inside a Ration Bag. The issue of Ration Bags for the Canadian Army was continued well into the late 1950s using up the WWI and WWII stocks.

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    Some Primary Source Details

    Post by edstorey on Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:03 am

    I have conducted a little bit of research this morning and found these details.

    Canadian Army Routine Order – 1945 5572

    Bags, Ration, Mk 4 1A1450
    Tins, Mess, Rectangular, Aluminum 1A303000
    Tins, Mess, Rectangular, Retinned 1A30350

    Materiel Entitlements CAF S23-502 Scales of Issue for the Canadian Land Forces Europe – Issue No. 4 – 1969

    8105-21-104-7714 Bag, cotton, ration, OD No 7, 1954


    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:49 am

    Thanks for looking up those details Ed!

    It is interesting to note that 'retinned' mess tins are mentioned. I wonder if they are referring to British-made steel mess tins, because I've never seen a steel example of a Canadian tin.

    As for the ration bag, the MkIV nomenclature and the fact that there was WWI stock makes me think that this order is referring to the style shown below, not the type with the drawstring and Canadian KD that we are discussing. I suppose it's possible that "Bag, ration, Mk. 4" could have different meanings in Canada and the UK, like the Pattern 1925/1919 webbing sets.



    Perhaps Canadian-made mess tin covers were made in such small quantities (and only by TAPATCO that I have seen so far) that they were never listed? This is entirely speculation though...




    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:05 pm

    According to Karkee Web, the British discontinued their covers around 1941 and it looks like Canada did the same shortly after (the latest example I have seen is 1942). Karkee Web goes on to say...

    “…L. of C. B 5405, approved 8 September 1941, confirmed that it was now obsolete and added that existing stocks were to be used up as Ration bags,”

    This is probably what the Canadians did as well (perhaps this is the source of the confusion today?).

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:44 pm

    Here's another Canadian mess tin maker for the records...


    Wgrenadier
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:36 pm

    This is interesting, the trademark that appears on these tins seems to have been filed in 1961...is it possible these were made that late?

    http://trade.mar.cx/CA260996

    Infanteer
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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Infanteer on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:59 am

    That trademark in the link is similar but not identical to the one on the mess tin. Regardless, I do believe these aluminum mess tins were used at least into the 70's and perhaps even the 80's so it is conceivable that they were made up to that point.

    edstorey
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    Messtins

    Post by edstorey on Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:03 am

    The Wear-Ever Messtins were issued with both the 1951 and 1964 Pattern web (in the 1970s) and were indeed used into the early 1980s.

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    Re: Question about Canadian WWII Mess Tins...

    Post by Wgrenadier on Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:53 pm

    Thanks for the insight guys! Very Happy

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