Canadian Scottish Insignia

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    Wouter
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    Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:08 am

    Gentlemen,

    I do not have a lot of pictures on my computer but will take some more soon. Here are a few I have on file:

    Four types of British made shoulder flashes



    Some more badges and pictures:



    And here is a picture just to tease all of you! :lol:



    And this last picture isn't mine... but the Can Scots play hardball!



    piper Wouter

    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:09 am

    Thanks Wouter. The Canadian Scottish have a lot of varieties, many different runs. Could you post an image of the backs of the titles?

    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:10 am

    Here is an image of my Canadian Scottish titles Second World War era.


    Wouter
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:28 am

    Hi Bill, they have indeed. Here are the backs. I am going to make a picture of all of my shoulder flashes. There is one in your picture of which I do not know the model. The one in the bottom right corner.

    In my opinion, the ones on the left side are from top to bottom:

    Printed canvas 44-45
    Square bottom, unsure when these were made, I think 1943.
    First British made model
    Later British (would like to see a close up)
    British by Hobson & Sons
    Early Canadian made

    And on the right:

    First British
    Later British
    Hobson & Sons 44/45
    About the last one I am not sure. Looks Canadian.


    Wouter
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:49 am

    Here are all of my cloth flashes. I apologize for the somewhat dark pictures, but the sun was going down over here.



    Wouter
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:50 am

    Now I also have some other badges. The top left cap badge was left behind by a Can Scot right here in Deventer. Grandad picked it up and he gave it to my dad. Some years ago I have claimed it as my rightful posession.




    A Glengarry,



    And a balmoral:


    Wouter
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:05 pm

    Here are the fighting Canadian Scottish who attended last years reunion:



    Apart from the bits and pieces posted here I also have an overcoat to a major from C Company, but it does not have regimental flashes on it. Although I know a whole lot of people who still have their battledresses, I have none, so am still on the lookout for one of those. If anyone comes across anything Canadian Scottish, let me know. This goes for both world wars. If it is something truly special (such as medal sets) I will notify the regimental museum.

    Wouter

    piper

    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:24 pm

    Well that totally sucks. I had a lengthy reply and it vaporized somewhere between send and arrival.


    Last edited by Bill on Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total

    Wouter
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:39 pm

    You could try pressing the back button on your browser. That usually does the trick for me.

    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:40 pm

    HI Wouters, First, a really nice accumulation that you have.
    I had a lengthy reply written and it totally vanished. That sucks.
    Back to my reply.
    Re the canvas titles. The one with the thick cord type backing is a 1943 issue. The weight of cloth was changed, and later issues (late 1944 or early 1945) were backed with the thin black cotton backing. The printed titles were the only pattern supplied to the Canadian army in the UK from 1943 until just around the end of the war.
    Re the titles without the embroidery stitched through them, are they flocked titles? Eg the lettering and design is sprayed on? Hard to tell from the image. If they are flocked they were made in Canada.
    Re the starch back titles. These are a bit of a mystery. There is no record of them in documents at archives, and yet this pattern exists for every Canadian unit that was in the European theatre of ops at the end of the war. It is also interesting that for some units, there are lots of these around, and virtually none for others. I have had a couple of tunics with the these titles on them, so they are good, but the provenance has yet to be recorded.
    Re the Hobson's title. These must be private purchase or a unit order prior to 1942. Hobson's were not accepted as a contractor for titles. They were found to be too expensive. Instead, embroidered titles were orderd from Lewis Falk. They were not contracted for any more embroidered titles when the Canadian army switched to printed titles.
    Private purchase titles raise several questions. In the documentation at archives, there are many comments about wool being a controlled wartime material. It's use was governed by a board, who granted permission to sell or use quantities of wool for title making. In fact, this appears to be one of the reasons that the British army went to printed titles. It is odd that there are so many variations of titles to the Canadian Scottish with this shortage of material in mind.
    The Canadian Scottish had at least one major order of titles before they embarked for overseas, and that is the pattern at the bottom of the left column. Very hard to find these early titles.

    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:42 pm

    No, the back button was the first thing I tried. The only thing I can think, is that we were both posting at the same instance. When I sent my original, now lost message, you were posting your pic of the vets. Must have conflicted somehow. Anyway, I redid that message, and it is the one above.

    Wouter
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:49 pm

    Hi Bill, which ones do you mean with starch back? Also, do you mean my left column or your left column? In the picture of my C Scot R flashes, the second set from above is actually of the same type as the left bottom. The middle ones, without the embroidery showing were given to me by the same veteran who gave me the set of early British made titles above them. I have been told that these 'printed on felt' titles were ordered by Canadian Army HQ after complaints were filed as to the quality of the British made embroidered titles, which would have been the Hobson & Sons titles.

    What do you think about the title with the black backing, bottom right hand corner?

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:25 pm

    Hi Wouters, (I hope that is the name you prefer?)
    Just found that there is an enlargement feature on the images. Great!
    The one I was talking about was the second one down. That is a sprayed colour on the felt backing. These were quite common in Canada for sports crests, etc, but were not durable. The army experimented with those in 1942 and rejected that pattern. There are many examples of that type around for several units. That is the first example of a Canadian Scottish flocked that I have seen. Some of these may have been private purchase as well. There are records of units using the flocked pattern before 1942.
    The starch back ones appear to be the ones in the second row and on the bottom left of your image. They are made of a wool felt, with no backing, but have a sort of glue or sizing to strengthen the title. Even so they were not as durable as the melton ones.
    Wouters, what characteristics of that embroidered title make you say it is Hobsons? As I said, there is no record of the unit ordering titles from Hobson's, but that is not conclusive that they didn't buy them.
    The bottom right on your image is interesting. Can you get a close up of the stitching?

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:44 pm

    Hi Bill, my name is actually Wouter, without an S at the end. The crude embroidery of the titles make me say it is a Hobson's. A knowledgeable Dutch collector also shares this opinion with me, he has a lot of examples to show and I'll send him a message if he knows about this forum.

    If, by second one down you mean the used set second from the top, I have 3 of those. Both those two and the one in the bottom left corner, which is in unissued condition.

    Do you know anything about the squared badge? It's the one right beneath the printed badge in your picture. Also, what do you know of the bottom left and right? The left one looks like an early Canadian to me but am not sure. I don't think I have seen the bottom right before but it looks Canadian. Will go and scan the one with the black backing now.

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:12 pm

    The one you requested:




    The one which I think is British made:




    And the ones of which I have never seen another pair:



    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:11 pm

    Hi Wouter, (Sorry about the mis-spelling.)
    Thanks for your opinion about which titles were Hobson's. I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same ones. I am very skeptical that the Hobson's titles were worn. The quality leaves a lot to be desired, and I have never seen a picture with them in use.
    Regarding your last post with the images. Top title is in my opinion a British made one. The maker is not known and these are fairly scarce. They may even be private purchase.
    The second one is the starch or sized back title discussed above. And the bottom one is the flocked pattern, which is the only Canadian Scottish example that I have seen in my collecting career. Nice items to have.
    In my image, the bottom right title came off of an officer's bd. It is in my opinion a tailor made item. I have not seen any others than the example that I have. The one on the left bottom in my image I believe to be the Canadian first issue. The Scottish bought one order of titles before they embarked. When I go through the records I can post the actual number of titles that they acquired in Canada.

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:14 pm

    I am fairly sure these are Hobson titles being worn on a 1945 homecoming battledress:



    Bill
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:44 pm

    Hi Wouter, They sure don't look like the other crappy ones in your earlier posts. Note that these have a fair bit of space between the ends of the lettering and the end of the title. It is quite possible that the soldier purchased these, but again it is an area of speculation.

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:17 pm

    Found some documentation for the Canadian Scottish embroidered shoulder titles, 1st Bn. They were submitted for approval May 27, 1941. An order was made shortly after.
    The Canadian Scottish were an anomaly in the organization of the army in Canada during the Second World War. Most units were organized on a two battalion basis during the war. There was the Active battalion and the reserve army battalion. There were a few units, like the Regina Rifles, Régiment de Maisonneuve, Fusiliers Mont Royal, Irish Fusiliers among others that had three battalions. In their cases, the 3rd Bn was an active battalion, and the 2nd was a reserve army battalion. Only active battalions were entitled to wear coloured embroidered shoulder titles. The reserve battalions were only authorized to wear the worsted or khaki drill slip ons. (Though a couple of exceptions exist. Sometimes the reserve Bn's received titles intended for the active unit, and sometimes they acquired titles at their own expense, but without permission.) So, for most units the first battalion was the active battalion and the second was the reserve battalion.
    However the Canadian Scottish was one of the few units which had two active battalions. This explains the issue of the two patterns of coloured embroidered shoulder titles. The Canadian Scottish 1st Bn was overseas, and the Canadian Scottish 2nd Bn was mobilized for service in Canada Jan 1, 1941, served with the 6 Division and was disbanded October 15, 1943. A third battalion existed, and was the reserve army battalion. The 2nd Battalion Canadian Scottish, as an active battalion in Canada, were entitled to a coloured title, but not to the pattern of the 1st Bn. The only Battalion entitled to wear the oak leaf acorn pattern badge was the 1st Bn. Thus the THE/ CANADIAN SCOTTISH pattern.
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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:59 pm

    Hi Bill, any idea about the one with the black gauze backing? I am quite leaning towards it being an English made specimen. Also, can you show some other examples of shoulder badges in the flecked type?

    Wouter

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Bill on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:07 pm

    Hello Wouter, I agree that the image with the black thin mesh backing is likely Brit made. Here is an example of a Fusiliers Mont Royal flocked title.

    [img][/img]

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:39 pm

    Hi Bill, any idea when these 'flecked' titles were introduced? I have never seen them on C Scot R battledresses before, and I have seen quite a few. Even the museum does not have a pair of the flecked titles as I have posted. I think I'll leave them to the museum when I die. Let's hope that won't happen too soon.

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    Death taxes and collections...

    Post by Bill on Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:35 pm

    Hi Wouter, I hope you have decades yet before you have to think about disposing of your collection.
    Flocked titles have a bit of a checkered history. They were cheap and easy to make, and some titles seem to show up here and there. There was no ordnance issue, eg an official issue. If the unit bought them, they were unofficial. NDHQ explored the idea of issuing flocked titles but they proved to be poor quality, and did not stand up to wear.

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Wouter on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:03 pm

    There should be an order for the flocked titles somewhere, as, apparently, they were made for a lot of units. Surely these weren't made privately?

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    Re: Canadian Scottish Insignia

    Post by Michael Reintjes on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:17 pm

    Bill...Is the one I have pictured at the top here among your examples...it looks similar to one of the ones you have bottom right.The second example here is one of the "crappy" English types.(Yes I think the quality is brutal as well. I have seen used examples of these bad quality flashes including the H&PE title shown below that was bought in a veteran hoard in the early 80's.This title shows up a lot as unissued but I have always kept this one because of the provenance and the machine stitched holes still evident showing that at least one guy in the H&PE wore this somewhat shitty title.


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