16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

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    jholl72
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    16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

    Post by jholl72 on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:18 pm

    Here's another one for you Rob.LOL! This time I am seeking advice before I buy...see I do learn.LOL!
    16th Royal Lancers greatcoat from circa 1861 to 1922, although it has Victorian Crown buttons.
    It appears to be a dark blue to black colour. Is this a period coat that you are familiar with.












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    jholl72
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    Re: 16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

    Post by jholl72 on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:26 pm

    Looks like the colour is right, although I don't see the pockets on the jacket I posted and there doesn't appear to be a belt in the pic below.



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    Rob
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    Re: 16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

    Post by Rob on Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:07 am

    Simple answer.. no, it's not a period coat that I am familiar with. I looked up coats for Lancers in the 1900 Officers' Dress Regulations which is usually a source of instant answers. However, in this case, it is not very helpful. However, I did get some info. Firstly, lancer officers didn't wear 'greatcoats', they wore 'capes' (knuckle length) and 'cloaks' (ankle length and what we are talking about here). Description is:

    LANCERS 385. Cloak and Cape - Blue cloth, of the same pattern as for Officers of Dragoon Guards and Dragoons, lined with scarlet, white lining in the 17th Lancers. In the 12th Lancers the collar of the cloak is scarlet, and in the 21st Lancers it is lined with French grey.

    Lined with scarlet... that matches! So what pattern, you ask, were Officers of Dragoon Guards and Dragoons wearing?

    DRAGOON GUARDS AND DRAGOONS 320. Cloak and Cape - Blue cloth, of the same pattern as for rank and file; to reach the ankles when worn on foot. White shalloon lining in the 2nd, 3rd and 6th Dragoon Guards and 1st and 6th Dragoons; scarlet in other regiments. Collar of cloak of white cloth in the 6th Dragoon Guards, red in the 1st Dragoons, black velvet in the 7th Dragoon Guards, and blue cloth in the ohter regiments. Red lining to the collar in the 1st Dragoon Guards and 2nd Dragoons. Buttons of regimental patterns. Shoulder straps of the same material as the garment; a small button at the top.

    So without knowing exactly what the 'rank and file' were wearing I can't be sure. I did also look up the Royal Horse Artillery, who are also mounted officers of course. Their cloak is described as follows:

    ROYAL HORSE ARTILLERY 425. Cloak - Blue cloth, with sleeves. Stand-and-fall collar with three black hooks and eyes in front, and three small flat silk buttons at the bottom to fasten the cape. Round loose cuffs, 6 inches deep. A pocket in each side seam outside, and one in the left breast inside. Four buttons down the front. A cloth back-strap, to fasten with a large flat silk button at the top of each pocket; a similar button in front on the right to hold the end of the back-strap when it is not buttoned across behind. White shalloon lining. The cloak to reach within 8 inches of the ground. Shoulder straps of the same material as the garment; a small button of regimental pattern at the top. A gusset behind as described in paragraph 14.

    So again some features that match your cloak, in this case the same collar as on your example is described exactly, as are the sleeves and cuffs. In terms of raw info this is all I have for now. It's not proof positive, but does seem promising. I have never seen any Victorian coats to be honest with you. They are pretty rare I would think. By the way, the gusset described in para 14 is basically the big slit down the back side. Paragraph 14 is a general description of the officers' dismounted greatcoat, and the variation of it worn by mounted officers 'for whom it is authorized', hence the need for a gusset.

    Rob

    jholl72
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    Re: 16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

    Post by jholl72 on Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:54 am

    Hi Rob,
    Thanks again for your help. Why can't I seem to find text book examples that are easy to ID?LOL! Same as the Engineers uniform, parts match a couple of different regiments but the whole doesn't seem to match a known regiment...so far.
    I recieved this email from the Queens Royal Lancers Museum, which is the modern regiment for the 16th QL's.


    Dear
    Mr. H,



    Thank
    you for your email. I am
    afraid that we cannot definitely confirm the date of the garment of
    which you
    sent pictures but would point out that it is a cavalry cloak not a
    greatcoat.
    It is not usual to have a belt on a cavalry cloak. From research in our
    records, it does not appear that officers’ pips were put on shoulder
    straps in the 1860s and the two pictured do not seem to be a pair. The
    pip on
    attachment 12334 looks modern. The button shown does look to be a 16th
    The Queen’s Lancers one. The Regiment amalgamated with the 5th
    Royal Irish Lancers to become the 16th/5th Lancers
    in
    1922.



    Best
    wishes, David Nalson,
    Volunteer


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    Re: 16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

    Post by jholl72 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:33 pm

    Well, I took the plunge again and have the cloak in hand today.
    Here are some more detailed pics of it. It certainly matches many features described in the RHA cloak description, except the buttons to hold the gusset closed, there are no buttons there nor is there any evidence to suggest buttons were ever there.
    There are the two pockets on the side seams and the inside left breast pocket. The belt has been modified, but still shows a button hole, perhaps the one described above.
    The pips are a mismatched pair, the darker one has left an imprint in the strap, indicating it has been there a long time...but may not be original.
    The hem of the cloak is unfinished and all buttons have been resewn. There is a stamp on the inside sleeve, Chrisdies...I have attempted a quick search on this and have turned up nothing so far.
    The coat is old and shows lots of signs of wear.
    So the adventure begins again on the research end of things...anyone know of any good reference books for me to buy?














































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    Re: 16th Queens Lancers Great Coat Victorian Era

    Post by jholl72 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:54 pm

    I found a civil war era coat online for sale with the same stamp on
    it...the dealer says it may be an aftermarket seller???? More research
    needed.

    Looks like Charles Chrisdie Co. was a clothing manufacturer in the
    Victorian era, can't find out anything about them though. They show up
    in a historical clothing book, that studies clothing from 1876-1888.


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