WW II Canadian Helmets

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    Bill
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Bill on Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:52 pm

    Marked helmets are notorious for forgeries. (There is one vendor who has earned a reputation for his decorative arts.)
    Lets parse this one. The unit, "X Super Heavy Battery RCA" did exist. It was operational for a grand total of about 4 months, from October of 1940 to February of 1941. The personnel were drawn from the CAHU (Canadian Artillery Holding Unit)to form "X" and "Y" Heavy Batteries, operating railway guns in defense against a possible German invasion. During their period of operational control they were under command of 3rd Super Heavy Regiment RA. But they were only a unit for four months.
    To come at it from another angle, the D xxxx number, either a D6xxx or an 8xxx were blocks alloted to artillery units, so that supports the artillery connection.
    Unfortunately, the formation patch has been obliterated, and is not really discernable. But, if there was as formation patch worn by 3 SHR RA during the time period it needs to be checked out.
    Balance of probabilities? Why would a gunner leave the identification of his helmet to that unit? It would be incorrect after Feb 1941.

    Jonhno
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Jonhno on Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:55 pm

    Bill wrote:Marked helmets are notorious for forgeries. (There is one vendor who has earned a reputation for his decorative arts.)
    Lets parse this one. The unit, "X Super Heavy Battery RCA" did exist. It was operational for a grand total of about 4 months, from October of 1940 to February of 1941. The personnel were drawn from the CAHU (Canadian Artillery Holding Unit)to form "X" and "Y" Heavy Batteries, operating railway guns in defense against a possible German invasion. During their period of operational control they were under command of 3rd Super Heavy Regiment RA. But they were only a unit for four months.
    To come at it from another angle, the D xxxx number, either a D6xxx or an 8xxx were blocks alloted to artillery units, so that supports the artillery connection.
    Unfortunately, the formation patch has been obliterated, and is not really discernable. But, if there was as formation patch worn by 3 SHR RA during the time period it needs to be checked out.
    Balance of probabilities? Why would a gunner leave the identification of his helmet to that unit? It would be incorrect after Feb 1941.

    Hello Bill

    Thanks for responding, I do not mind at all any scrutiny on this helmet, I am learning myself too. This was my understanding that it was from a coastal artillery battery in the UK, I appreciate the detail regarding how long it existed. Also referencing the no. believe its a 6---. I got it based on a few images, I didnt notice the flash until I got it in the post and had a better look at it, someone had stuffed a mint canadian made liner in it with a new nut and bolt, again only in hand did I notice that it was a british made shell and was actually originally grey
    perhaps he was assigned to a new unit after this, and the helmet not used again, my gut feeling having it in hand is that its ok, I can understand your point about the info being irrelivant after such a short time, they might not have known it was such a short posting to begin with, and to leave it on? if it was used, his no. would still remain the same I would think? if your ever by Toronto Bill you are welcome to take a look at it

    Cheers

    John

    iwasatdieppe06
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by iwasatdieppe06 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:40 pm

    mk1rceme wrote:Fantastic helmet!

    I don't own a helmet with a waterslide decal, but I have a few with painted unit insignia. I do have an original RCAF waterslide though.

    Maybe we should have two topics, one for decals and one for painted examples. What do you think?






    Hey Dale, just wondering about the RCAF decal. Were those war time applied?

    Thks
    KElly

    mk1rceme
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by mk1rceme on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:21 am

    No idea...more than likely there were some. The only ones I have seen lately look like they were applied very recently. I have an RCEME helmet with a waterslide decal which has a varnish applied over the decal that has darkened with age. I've seen several RCAF helmets on ebay recently that do not show any varnish or aging at all.


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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by mk1rceme on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:33 am

    This is what I mean...after a while the varnish darkens and changes the color of the decal. In hand the light blue on the bottom looks green. For a while I didn't know this one was RCEME because of the color change. With German helmets, the varnish applied to the decals gives them a darker color as well. Because of this, I would be wary of some of the RCAF helmets seen on ebay.



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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by iwasatdieppe06 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:06 pm

    Thank you, so the RCAF decal lid WAF bought example in this topic looks post war as well? I see no varnish or aging.

    Bill
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Bill on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:20 pm

    Hi John, Thanks for your observations. I have become far more skeptical of most militaria in the last few years. There is a lot of demand for a limited number of items. It boils down to greed. Some individuals wish to line their pockets with the collectors' cash, and to meet the demand, material is created. I am not saying that your helmet is good or phoney. What I hope is that people will research the items and get an understanding and provenance of what it is. There are many clues as to what is good or bad. Several times tunics or badges have been parsed to show the characteristics of what was practiced and what was not. These are the clues to authenticity.

    Jonhno
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Jonhno on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:21 pm

    Bill wrote:Hi John, Thanks for your observations. I have become far more skeptical of most militaria in the last few years. There is a lot of demand for a limited number of items. It boils down to greed. Some individuals wish to line their pockets with the collectors' cash, and to meet the demand, material is created. I am not saying that your helmet is good or phoney. What I hope is that people will research the items and get an understanding and provenance of what it is. There are many clues as to what is good or bad. Several times tunics or badges have been parsed to show the characteristics of what was practiced and what was not. These are the clues to authenticity.

    I can understand where you are coming from Bill, I did some background research on this unit before I made the purchase, it was for sale on an auction site, the listing ended and I made the guy an offer as it did not sell, I didnt think anyone would be interested in it as it was not combat, per se, thats what I found neat, what I would like to know is the location of the battery in the UK, so when I am at home to visit I might be able to go take a look, I too am hesitant on militaria these days, I like items that have something to research, finding out information on the unit is what made me go for this one,


    servicepub
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by servicepub on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:32 pm

    Looks like I will play the bad guy again. I refuse to accept any helmet with an RCAF, RCA or RCCS decal consisting of the WWII cap badge. I base this on no specific information but on observation. I have somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 images in my collection and have not once seen any of these decals in wear. In addition, I and Roger Lucy have looked at almost every known archival file on Canadian Army helmets. The insignia (helmet flash and shoulder titles) to be used by the RCA is one of the few that actually rated an official chart, with measurements, and was produced in colour. The portion dealing with helmet flashes is shown on my website at http://www.servicepub.com/helmetflashes.htm . The image for the RCA is

    I do remember having many of these three decals in my possession back in the late 1960s and was informed then that they were sold through Maple Leaf Enterprises, the forerunner to today's Canex, presumably for personal use.

    Clive

    servicepub
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by servicepub on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:37 pm

    Here are five different RCA units. Different units but consistent use of the approved flash.


    Jonhno
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Jonhno on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:59 pm

    servicepub wrote:Here are five different RCA units. Different units but consistent use of the approved flash.


    with respect I have to say that the first flash (175) looks different, wider and an extra bar? what do you make of this helmet I posted Clive the Super Heavy?

    iwasatdieppe06
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by iwasatdieppe06 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:32 pm

    Thanks Dale and Clive, I agree. I don't think the RCAF decals are WW2 vintage. Most likely the returning vets got these and slapped them on a few helmets. The rest are just floating around until some fool decides to apply them to boost a lid value.

    Jonhno
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Jonhno on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:59 pm

    ...


    Last edited by Jonhno on Wed May 01, 2013 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total

    servicepub
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by servicepub on Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:21 pm

    Here's the feedback from the first buyer.
    High shipping$. Tried to sell items off eBay. Tried to increase shipping $.

    iwasatdieppe06
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by iwasatdieppe06 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:55 pm

    Hi Clive, the WAF member who owned the RCAF decal helmet pictured in this topic, today told me he never did get any clear answers on if period applied or not. He thought that they might be WW2 but Home Front.

    Thks
    Kelly

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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Jonhno on Wed May 01, 2013 11:15 am

    how about this one

    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668250

    from Normandy

    servicepub
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by servicepub on Wed May 01, 2013 9:11 pm

    The helmet in question;



    My response;

    Although not an expert in painted helmets I will add this to the discussion. The use of coloured flashes served two purposes; one was to help instill an esprit de Corps in the unit, and the other was to provide identification.

    To use colours that differed from those approved would not accomplish either goal.

    Certainly, no regiment would allow colour substitutes after having made an informed decision on the proper colours. This the Chaudieres did and it is documented thanks to Mike's research.

    Clive
    http://www.servicepub.com/helmetflashes.htm

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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by iwasatdieppe06 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:58 pm

    servicepub wrote:Looks like I will play the bad guy again. I refuse to accept any helmet with an RCAF, RCA or RCCS decal consisting of the WWII cap badge. I base this on no specific information but on observation. I have somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 images in my collection and have not once seen any of these decals in wear. In addition, I and Roger Lucy have looked at almost every known archival file on Canadian Army helmets. The insignia (helmet flash and shoulder titles) to be used by the RCA is one of the few that actually rated an official chart, with measurements, and was produced in colour. The portion dealing with helmet flashes is shown on my website at http://www.servicepub.com/helmetflashes.htm . The image for the RCA is

    I do remember having many of these three decals in my possession back in the late 1960s and was informed then that they were sold through Maple Leaf Enterprises, the forerunner to today's Canex, presumably for personal use.

    Clive

    Here is an update on the RCAF decal that was sent to me.

    "They told me that it was used on helmets between 1948 and 1953 for ground maneuvers (King George Crown). It is authentic to that time period (late 40s to early 50s) and one of the RCAF veterans at the Museum said he had one exactly like it during that time. Therefore, the logo is real and legitimate, but not to World War Two, just shortly afterwards".











    edstorey
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    Helmet Decal

    Post by edstorey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:35 pm

    Anecdotal confirmations are good, it is always nice when someone can confirm a piece of equipment or markings or whatever and they are good snippets to add to your toolbox of data, but you have to remember that primary source documentary proof is the best evidence that you want to prove or disprove your discussion point. Notice how Clive provided an example from a document with his post, this is the type of information you want to have to refer to.

    From your previous statement, I have some questions, the first being who is the ‘they’? What where these ‘ground maneuves’ between 1948 and 1953? Which museum are we talking about?

    Something that you also have to remember is that just because someone was in the military and works or volunteers at a museum, does not mean that they know what they are talking about when it comes to things military. Enjoy the interaction with these people, enjoy the stories but you have to remember that stories can change over time which is why you want to find the primary source data.

    iwasatdieppe06
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by iwasatdieppe06 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:03 pm

    Hi Ed, yes I agree. It would have been worse if the old Veteran of that era tried to claim it as WW2 which we know isn't true.

    The they and the museum are old Vets from RCAF Museum at CFB TRenton. Ground maneuvers by what unit etc was not mentioned. I can PM you with the email sender if you want as it was a private email.

    I was interested in a Canadian lid with a WW2 decal, so I put many feelers out there at this forum and others regarding those 2 RCAF on ebay. This was a reply to one of those emails.

    Thanks
    KElly





    thegate
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by thegate on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:02 pm

    Hi hall,
    this my new helmet.
    Royal Canadian Artillery, 4 Anti-Tank Regiment, RCA
    77th divison

    ==================================

    Bill
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Bill on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:21 pm

    Hi, The helmet you show has the tac sign for either 4 AT Regt RCA, 5 Canadian Armoured Division or 5 AT Regt RCA 4 Canadian ARmoured Division. How did you determine it was 4 AT? What is the medium used to inscribe the soldier's name? It appears to be marker in the image?

    thegate
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by thegate on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:49 pm

    Hi Bill , tu trouveras ici
    http://home.cogeco.ca/~gdavidson1/5Div.html

    pour le nom du soldat , je ne sais pas si il est bon ???

    Bill
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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by Bill on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:11 pm

    Hi Gate, The tac sign, 77 is the same for the AT regiment in the 4th and 5th Armd Div. The material used to inscribe the soldier's name appears to be marker. It was not available until long after the Second World War.

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    Re: WW II Canadian Helmets

    Post by thegate on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:03 pm

    Hello Bill, thank you,
      the name of the soldier I suspected well he is not good.
    But I not bought the helmet for the name but well for the helmet.

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