A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

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    Fortes97
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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Fortes97 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:57 pm

    Bill, the patch was worn October 26th 2008 by OMLT soldiers of the 3rd battalion ,Royal Canadian Regiment in Kandahar.



    Jean




    Last edited by Fortes97 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Fortes97
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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Fortes97 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:59 pm

    And is the yellow square the same material as the cat eyes on the CF issued boonies?

    mk1rceme
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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by mk1rceme on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:11 pm

    Infanteer wrote:Unofficial door gunner wings issued in Canada just prior to deploying on roto 11 in 2011. These wings came from a gunner who had actually shot an insurgent with a .50 cal GAU 21 from a Griffon.

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    Turned that talitubbie into a grease spot I bet.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Infanteer on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:35 pm

    Fortes97 wrote:And is the yellow square the same material as the cat eyes on the CF issued boonies?

    Yes, it's the same luminous material.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:13 am

    Hello Jean, Thanks for the information.

    Another batch of questionable patches have been put up on ebay. Again, the characteristics of these patches include a sand coloured velcro, (interesting in that it appears that exactly the same velcro backing is on all the patches, even though the patches range from 2008 issue through 2012), embroidery stitching is different from known authentic examples, different font on some, including serif lettering, and significant differences in the details of the designs. Interesting that many of these patches have been featured in images on this or other sites.http://www.ebay.com/itm/CANADIAN-ARMY-AFGHANISTAN-PATCH-BADGE-BROTHERS-IN-ARMS-C-/281063131533?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4170ab098d


    Last edited by Bill on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by mk1rceme on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:52 am

    Bill wrote:Another batch of questionable patches have been put up on ebay. Again, the characteristics of these patches include a sand coloured velcro, (interesting in that it appears that exactly the same velcro backing is on all the patches, even though the patches range from 2008 issue through 2012), embroidery stitching is different from know authentic examples, different font on some, including serif lettering, and significant differences in the details of the designs. Interesting that many of these patches have been featured in images on this or other sites.http://www.ebay.com/itm/CANADIAN-ARMY-AFGHANISTAN-PATCH-BADGE-BROTHERS-IN-ARMS-C-/281063131533?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4170ab098d

    I was looking at these last night. The one thing I thought strange was the stitching on the edge is securing the velcro to the patch. Never seen that before.

    I have purchased many things from this seller...all legit stuff. Doesn't make these legit though.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by sarge5020 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:53 pm

    Guys, here is my humble two cents worth.

    These patches were made by civilians on the boardwalk in Kandahar Air Field. Anybody could walk into the shop with a drawing and they would make the patch. Being in the middle of a war zone could have an effect on the quality of the raw material that went into the patches, depending on when the patch was made and possibly, who at the shop was making them on that particular day. People came and went, both military and civilian. The skill of the individual embroiderer might have an impact on the quality and manufacture of patches.

    Since these patches were, in essence, unofficial, although they were tolerated by the powers that were during the tours. For anyone to look at a patch and say that it is a “good” patch or not, I think, is really pushing the issue. Unless you subject to patch to some kind of test that will detect the presence of the ever present Kandahar dust, you really have no way of knowing if a patch was made over there or not. Also, is a patch made in Canada (or the U.S. or Europe) before, during or after the tour any less “official” than one made in Kandahar considering that NONE of them are or were official at all?

    We’ve all seen photos of the ISAF patch and the variations in the quality of the embroidering just in these patches alone. To look at a patch and conclude that it is questionable because of the manner in which it is stitched or the colour of the Velcro is, in my opinion, really splitting hairs.

    I would say that if you see a patch being worn in a photo of the guys over there, then get the patch. Of course, many patches were made and worn but that there is no published photo of them. The patches we had made during my tour for the FOB in Spin Boldak were never photographed in use that I know of. I can attest that it was made over there but that does not make it “official” in the true meaning of the word.

    Take the great debate over shoulder titles that were made during the Second World War. Some were made in Canada, some in Britain, some in Europe. Some were “official” while others were ordered by the units as they were needed. We often come across period photos that change our idea of what was in wear in certain or other units.

    Is the cap badge that is supplied through the official DND supply chain any more official that the cap badge that is purchased through the regimental kit shop that was manufactured by a different company than where DND shops?

    If you clean a cap badge do you lessen the value? I’ve never met a sergeant-major that would tolerate a dirty or tarnished regimental cap badge so why are we collectors so willing to depict cap badges in our collection that are dirty or tarnished because that was NOT how they were worn.

    I guess the point of all of this is don’t get too wrapped around the axle over the stitching or material because there really wasn’t any quality control in these things. Don’t pay too much for the patch unless you really like it and feel that your collection will never be complete without it.

    Cheers,
    John

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by mk1rceme on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:23 pm

    Good points. One thing I've always wondered is that some collectors on some US forums get bent out of shape when they see a different color of velcro on a patch. Some say that the blue color is the only velcro used in theater made examples. And they should be stitched from 1" or 2" sections then cut around the edges. And some say the edging on the patch determines where it is made. I think it is called merrowed edge vs. cut edge style. Somehow I doubt there is a monopoly on blue colored velcro in theater. Plus I have seen patches with all kinds of velcro colors and stitched in sections.

    In this day and age it would be impossible to know for sure. Some patch vendors over there should have the more modern machines by now. I have heard that some returning soldiers actually invested in modern patch making machines to be used in theater after seeing some of the older equipment in use there.

    I would definitely be interested in some of the patches on ebay right now based on exactly what Sarge explained in his post.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Infanteer on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:41 pm

    From my point of view I would rather have a patch either used by a soldier overseas or at least made in theatre. Adding patches to the collection that were made yesterday at the local shop in Canada strictly for the purpose of deceiving collectors has no interest to me. I know the seller of these patches but I have not posed the question to him as to where they originated from but the source seems suspicious considering he is selling a PPCLI force protection patch with the bull dog and on the bottom instead of the proper MTTF it actually says MTTI. I'm sure that anyone who would have worn that patch as part of their job would have known the difference. And I can say with great certainty that none of those patches were made on the boardwalk. The construction is very different and I never saw any that had the edge embroidered onto the velcro. It just wasn't done regardless of who was running the embroidery machine that day. Adding these, dare I say "fake" patches to the collection only adds to the confusion for those who are trying to determine what patches were actually used by soldiers or at least made in theatre. I don't think we are doing ourselves any favors by supporting people who profit from selling these made up patches. But that's just my opinion.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:53 pm

    I was writing this as Steve posted. I agree with him. I would be extremely cautious about those patches on ebay. The points that John makes are important, and add to the issues that we knew were going to arise with the Afghan deployment insignia. These points have been made before. The problem is not the fact there was little control and no authorizations for most Afghan patches. The problem is in these actual patches. They have the border embroidered into the velcro, not sewn on like every single patch I have that I know is authentic. (And I am willing to keep an open mind about that point.) It is highly suspect that patches that span three or four rotos (at least 4 years difference) would all have exactly the same velcro backing, sewn in the same way. And, when I compared the patches in the listings to the examples in my collection there were significant differences in construction, colours, and design. Note that all of these patches on ebay appear to be mint, unworn. The same vendor is also selling rolls of velcro that are the same shade as on the back of these patches. (This is not an accusation, but an observation.) Modern embroidery is easily made using the high quality digital images that are used as for the basis of the design. They can be scanned into the computer that runs the embroidery machines, and viola, copies of the patches. Once the design is in the machine it can be copied and moved to other embroidery machines. Another question; some of these patches represent very small units or taskings. Only a handful were needed. Why would there be several different patterns of a small group? Yes, as has been pointed out, the patches were made in Canada, Afghanistan, and likely other places (I was told of one being made in the Phillipines.)But how many runs?
    It is not one characteristic that makes these suspect, but the accumulation of several characteristics. As John says, don't pay too much for it, because in my opinion they are not authentic.

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    Post by Tankermike on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:37 pm

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ISAF-OMLT-DATES-velcro-uniform-patch-military-insignia-USA-army-Afghanistan-/251206347695?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7d10abaf&nma=true&si=Uyz%252FD5c65q%252B%252BO5OylLKU2pY6ixw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    Same rear sticihing on this patch, from Crotia.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by pylon1357 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:55 pm

    I cannot add much to this as Steve, explained my position almost to a tee. I almost spit my coffee out this morning when I saw the Force Protection PPCLI MTTI patch. I wish I had my patches here with me in Montreal. I could take a photo of what it is supposed to look like.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:19 pm

    Hi Cliff, Here you are.
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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by pylon1357 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:22 pm

    Thanks Bill, I should have known you had one. IIRC these patches were made in Canada and have a black velcro backing? Or is my memory failing as well the rest of my body.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:32 pm

    Yep, black velcro on this one.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Infanteer on Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:16 am

    Bill wrote:Hello Jean, Thanks for the information.

    Another batch of questionable patches have been put up on ebay. Again, the characteristics of these patches include a sand coloured velcro, (interesting in that it appears that exactly the same velcro backing is on all the patches, even though the patches range from 2008 issue through 2012), embroidery stitching is different from known authentic examples, different font on some, including serif lettering, and significant differences in the details of the designs. Interesting that many of these patches have been featured in images on this or other sites.http://www.ebay.com/itm/CANADIAN-ARMY-AFGHANISTAN-PATCH-BADGE-BROTHERS-IN-ARMS-C-/281063131533?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4170ab098d

    For general info I wanted to pass on that I texted the seller (ref the link above) about the patches tonight and advised that they are questionable (without getting into specifics) and he has assured me that he is going to pull them as it is his intention to only sell 100% original items. He is very concerned about his reputation and I can only say that my dealings in the past with him have been positive. I realize that this only makes a small dent in the problem of reproduction insignia but I like to think that every little bit helps and it's a step in the right direction.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by pylon1357 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:20 am

    If he does pull these then it is very good news. I contacted him on the first batch of patches he had on offer. He was concerned but said he trusted the source these came from. Now with you sending him a note on this batch, maybe he understands there is a problem.

    I have dealt with this seller a few times, I have always been very very happy with his wares, and the transactions have always been very quick.

    I have just noted he has pulled at least the one in the link, but suspect the others have been pulled as well. Great News.


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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:16 am

    Hi Steve, The lots were pulled, thanks for the action. Were they on consignment or were they in the store inventory?
    Hopefully these won't show up somewhere else.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Infanteer on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:06 pm

    Bill wrote:Hi Steve, The lots were pulled, thanks for the action. Were they on consignment or were they in the store inventory?
    Hopefully these won't show up somewhere else.

    He only said that they came from a local collector who he wouldn't name, but I have seen one or two in the possession of another local guy... who knows where he got them from. As for what will happen with them now I have no idea.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Tankermike on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:44 am

    Steve, I had traded some patches for them, I thought they were good, what about the Afgan/Canada patch with no velcro I have? I guess I will have to take them out of my display case at the antique mall. I traded another guy for that same helicopter roto patch and this one again is different, I will post the picture when I get it.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Infanteer on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:33 pm

    Mike, like I mentioned earlier with regards to that CHF(A) patch from the first tour, all of ours were made at the boardwalk in KAF so the construction is pretty straight forward. Not only is that patch in your display a completely different construction but it has added details that just weren't on any of the patches worn during the tour. Someone has obviously had it made post deployment. Whether it was done as a personal souvenir or with the intent of selling as a reproduction (or as a fake) is unknown. I guess there is nothing wrong with making and selling reproductions as long as they are sold as such but of course collectors are not going to like this as the issue of weeding out the repros/fakes from the "real" patches is so difficult to begin with.

    Please share a photo of your Afghan/Canada patch as I'm not sure which one you are talking about.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Tankermike on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:56 pm

    As soon as I get the other patch in the mail I will post it and compare it to that one, those two in the display case I will have to take out, as long as you think its not good no point keeping them. Trading is becoming a minefeild lately. What about that Calgary camel roto Apollo patch?

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:20 pm

    Hi Mike, Your Calg Helair Det patch was posted on the B&CMBF. http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=200690#post200690 (I know most of us are on the various fora, but just to connect the dots on this patch.)
    The Calg Helair Det patch looks fine.

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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by sarge5020 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:33 am

    With all of the discussion about the construction of the patches manufactured and worn in Afghanistan, I thought that I would scan the front and back of the patches that I was issued over there during ROTO 6 (2008-09).
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    Re: A Selection of Shoulder Patches from Afghanistan

    Post by Bill on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:34 am

    Thanks sarge. Note the variety of velcro backings and the manner in which they are stitched.

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