CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

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    Robotwizard
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    CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Robotwizard on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:24 pm

    Hello,
    Looking for some assistance in determining what sort of wings and other badges a soldier might have worn on his DEU tunic circa 1970-71.  I recently acquired a fine example that appears to have been stripped of its accoutrements and I'd like to return it to its original appearance.  There's pin holes where a set of wings and a ribbon bar would have been, and a packet fob but no badge.  Perhaps AMF or a UNEF badge?

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Infanteer
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Infanteer on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:37 pm

    If the uniform is circa 1970-71 then what you have is a CF green service dress. DEU (distinctive environmental uniform) were introduced in 1986. This is when the army, navy and air force once again had their own distinctive uniforms in appropriate colors. The badge worn on the pocket was most likely a command badge such as Force Mobile Command, Air Operations Command, etc... Considering that at that time the same uniform was worn by all elements the wings could have been jump wings, one of many aircrew wings or even a navy divers badge. There are just too many variables without seeing the uniform in detail to give you a concise answer at this point.


    Last edited by Infanteer on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:04 am; edited 1 time in total

    Robotwizard
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Robotwizard on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:46 pm

    Thanks for the quick reply and the terminology correction. The source I purchased it from confirmed it was for a soldier serving in the land element of mobile command, for a private who had served in Germany and the Middle East.

    Just wondering if the wings would have been metal or cloth, and if the AMF or MOBCOM badges would have been an appropriate pocket fob.

    Cheers,

    Infanteer
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Infanteer on Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:08 am

    Mobile command was entirely a land element. Force Mobile Command was essentially the name for the army element of the unified Canadian Armed Forces. The wings in that case were likely parachutist qualification wings and on the dress uniform would be cloth. The Mobile Command (FMC) badge would have been appropriate in Canada but I believe in Germany they would have worn the Canadian Forces Europe command badge, but I'm not certain. Lots of this information is available by searching online which I recommend as you will learn much more than you will by coming here and asking specific questions.

    Bill
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Bill on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:13 am

    1970-71  is very early in the unification period, and the general policy at that time was to limit insignia to the bare minimum. (At one point serious consideration was given  to the entire Canadian Forces wearing a single cap badge.) All three elements fought this policy tooth and nail.
    As Steve indicates, the uniform of the time was the CF service dress. Basically this pattern of uniform was  not dressed with any insignia, except maybe the appropriate regimental collar badges. ( I am not sure when collars were authorized for CF wear.) There were no regimental shoulder titles in metal or cloth, and IIRC the only sleeve insignia other than rank badges was the CANADA nationality title. The CF Europe command patch was not authorized at that time.

    Robotwizard
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Robotwizard on Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:43 pm

    Bill,
    Thanks for the more useful reply. I must admit infanteer's post surprised me a little bit. I was researching online, which is what led me to this forum. And as a member of many other similar forums, it's been my experience that this should be the place to ask specific questions such as uniform details, since this is where the subject matter experts tend to hang out. Frankly, it was a pretty cold reception for a new member and it's the sort of thing that turns people away from taking a greater interest in Canadian military history. Not a great start.

    I suppose I should have put the question in context - I have some knowledge of the period in question. To correct a few things written below, CF integration begins in the fall of 1964, with army HQ officially being stood down by the last CGS, Geoffrey Walsh on 31 August. It goes through a period of evolution, and CF unification comes into effect with the passing of Bill C-243 (the Canadian Forces Reorganization Act) in February 1968.

    Mobile Command in fact was not entirely a land element. When it was officially activated on 19 October 1965 it included air staff in its command structure as well as air units under command. For eg., LGen Allard's original deputy commander designate and later deputy commander operational support was AVM Frank Carpenter. Each combat group in Mobile Command had its own tactical air support, provided by No.10 Tactical Air Group. Mobile Command evolved into FMC not as a result of a need to define the army element of the CAF, but because of a political desire to make the tile more bilingual - force mobile - mobile command - FMC. All of this information is easily found in the formation's annual historical reports among other primary sources.

    I had looked at various photos of members in the CF tunic in Sentinel, DND's own Defence annual reports, etc., and for the period in question there doesn't appear to be a standard other than minimalism. Some soldiers are wearing collar dogs, others are not. I haven't seen anyone with a AMF(L) fob and have seen both cloth and metal wings. Wasn't sure about command badges - I don't know when the mobile command pocket badge came into use.

    Anyway, thanks for the replies. If I discover anything further in my own research elsewhere I'll leave a post here for those interested.

    Cheers,


    Infanteer
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Infanteer on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:33 pm

    My reason for recommending that you do some research was simply that you will learn more that way. My intent was simply to give a basic response as it was not clear to me what level of knowledge you have. Your first request seemed rather broad which often indicates that the person asking the question hasn't done any previous research. Had you introduced yourself before asking your first question this may have all been avoided. Something to consider.

    My comment about FMC being the "army" part of the Canadian Forces was based on my experience in the military when we still wore that badge. It was my experience that it was only worn by those members in the "land element" which was essentially the army. Things may have been different in the early days of the unified CAF and according to your research they were but I would like to point out that just because a unit is under command does not mean that it will necessarily be a part of the same command. For example, tactical helicopter squadrons are often under command of army organizations but they still wear blue uniforms. So, did members of 10 TAG wear the MC badge? I don't know (not my area of interest really) but don't assume that they did just because they were under command of Mobile Command.

    Metal wings on the dress uniform? Again, it would seem that things have changed. Obviously this is a period in time that I am not particularly familiar with, and I'm fine with that.

    edstorey
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    CF Uniforms and Insignia 1969-1970

    Post by edstorey on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:47 am

    As Infanteer pointed out, this forum gets a fair number of very broad-brush questions on various topics relating to militaia and militaria collecting. The majority of these questions can take hours of research and are usually generated by someone who has a passing interest in a topic and is looking for a quick answer.

    I am glad to see that Robotwizard has researched the topic by conducting more than just a Google search which seems to be the norm for most people these days.

    From my point of view, and without digging into any of the documentation that I hold, I seem to recall that the metal CF parachute wings were issued before the cloth ones and that the metel wings were worn on the CF Jacket until replaced by cloth. I also think that the CFE Command Badge was in use in the early 1970s as we were stationed in Lahr at the time and I seem to recall that the badge was being worn, although again I would have to check to be sure.

    Unlike today were my current DEU is decorated like a Christmas Tree, the early CF was not overly embellished with insignia. The difficult part of reconstructing an early 1970s CF uniform would be in finding the correct nametag as they changed in the early 1980s to a different text font and name plate size.


    Bill
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    Re: CF DEU UNIFORM 1969-70 CFE badges?

    Post by Bill on Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:42 am

    Hi Ed, I would certainly like to confirm either your understanding or mine about the command badges. The material from archives indicates a lot of debate about almost all insignia, and there are reems of documents about the parachute and airforce qualification wings. But I don't recall coming across much of anything on command badges circa 1970-75.

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